Finally! The Russian military has decided to speak out about some of what it knows about what happened to MH17. It was a typical Russian event: the interpreters were nothing short of *terrible* (I speak as a former military interpreter myself), the visual aids were badly designed (the shape of a SU-24 bomber was used to represent a totally different SU-25 close air support aircraft), and there was no Q&A. See for yourself:
Still, a few very interesting things came out of this press conference.
First, the Ukies have been caught lying about their military aircraft in the area of the disaster. They had claimed that no UAF aircraft were in the area. The Russians have shown the recorded radar tracks which reveal the following: there was what appears to have been a military aircraft (with no transponder) flying below 5000m which suddenly began climbing just before MH17 was hit by some kind of missile. This unidentified aircraft then stayed and observed as MH17 fell to the ground. The Russians added that a SU-25 armed with a R-60 air to air missile could have shot down MH17. Maybe. But what is certain is that the civilian radars did detected this strange Ukie aircraft.
Now, these radar tracks are from *civilian* radars. The Russians apparently are not willing to share the data from their military radars. This is why this mysterious Ukie aircraft ‘appears’ at 5’000m altitude and then ‘disappears’ again, but you can be certain that their military radars, especially on their A-50 AWACs did track that aircraft before and after its strange maneuver. Again, I think that the Russians hope that the experts will come to the correct conclusions on the basis of what they have shown today and that they will not have to reveal more. But we can be certain that they have the full picture and that they know exactly what happened.
Second, the Russians are challenging their American colleagues to show the images they claim show the launch of the BukM1 rocket. They also point out at the interesting coincidence that an US experimental launch detection satellite was exactly over the area at the moment of the tragedy. Clearly, they are tossing the world experts some kind of lead here, but I am not sure what this is.
Third, the Russians have shown their own space-based imagery which shows that one battery of BukM1 had been moved just prior to the incident (See for yourself here). It will be interesting to see if the Ukies explain what is shown on these picture and, if yes, how?
As a public information this conference gets a C+ but as a lead for experts I would give it a much higher A-. We know have hard proof that the Ukies lied at least twice. They lied about the footage of the Buk missiles being moved back to Russia (the footage was taken in Ukie-occupied territory) and they most definitely lied when they denied having any military aircraft in the area when in reality they had one in the immediate proximity of MH17. That is a huge lie which the Ukies will have a very hard time dismissing.
As I said in my first post about MH17, I have no hope whatsoever that the western plutocracy will ever admit that the junta did it. Ditto for the corporate presstitues of the MSM, but I do hope that the world will see this tragedy for what is clearly was: a deliberate false flag on the part of the Nazi junta in Kiev. As David Chandler correctly points out about 9/11, the proof of a cover up is in itself already a proof of a conspiracy.
The Saker
China has also come out full bore for Russia.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-21/china-blasts-one-sided-western-rush-judge-russia-over-mh17
Possibly Russia shared some of their classified Intel with China, allowing the Chinese government the confidence to make such statements.
Very interesting. US leaders have been screeching about all the proof they have while noticeably revealing little of any actual proof. And definitely not IR launch signatures as the Russians are alluding to. Vlad needs to have his own IR data forwarded over to the western European leaders via their embassies. The US will simply try to ignore any counter-evidence while suppressing any domestic Intel agencies or workers who have data that undermines their preferred narrative. So it would depend on Germany and others whether they’d be willing to go along with another big US lie if the Russians have conclusive technical proof of a launch site used by the Ukrainian BUK site. (very risky for them if they do after going along with the WMD fiasco in Iraq).
Making a case in one thing, using it is another.
If Russia is indeed saying that not only did Ukraine shoot down the plane it was done knowingly and on purpose for the deliberate reason of blaming and demonising Russia Internationally, then it has the perfect Casus Belli to intervene in the Ukraine.
Lets face it, the current news suggests that the time to do so has finally arrived!
It breaks my heart to see that in this time and age, Russia still didn’t grasp the importance of presentation. Fifty years ago, on Sept. 26, 1960, John F. Kennedy and Richard Nixon squared off in the first-ever televised general-election presidential debate. One looked Clammy-faced, awkward, and tired, the other one was wearing a dark suit and flashing his boyish smile…etc. The majority of women voters admitted that they had no idea what Kennedy was talking about but they all overwhelmingly decided to vote for him. Countless great products are getting trashed all over the world because they failed at proper advertising. Steve Job said: “Design always wins over truth.” In fact, people perceive good design as truth. Now, more than ever, the fate of Russia depends on the Russian ability to get the message out there in a way that doesn’t get trashed because of its poor presentation.
I am inclining more to think this was a desperate Ukie hatched plot (perhaps with some US State Dept goons) where the perpetrators failed to take into account the state of current surveillance technology. They were losing the sanctions fight badly, IMF loans at rick, can’t defeat the militia in the east without a protracted and very bloody fight they were up against the wall. They either didn’t realize that Russia had the means to expose their lie (the junta are not experts in military affairs) or thought/hoped that having prepared their story they could win an info war quickly and prevent meaningful/conclusive investigation. We can hope that the full truth will come out fairly quickly now.
Marek said…
Just saw the obomber press live mini-conference and it was so disgusting. He just took advantage of blaming first in order to take the cards our of the enemies’s hands. Really pathetic and highly “vomiting stuff”. Always I have to persuade myself to watch these clowns e.g. nulland, psaki, kerry etc. Something like “you have to go through this raw material in order to better understand the complex situation, incl. reading the body language and rhetorical/semantic juggling of these subhuman evil entities”. Well, I assume not being the only one going through this emotional trauma while watching and getting understanding of the geopolitical freak show… Wish to all of you the strongest nerves… ;)
Marek said…
Just saw the obomber press live mini-conference and it was so disgusting. He just took advantage of blaming first in order to take the cards our of the enemies’s hands. Really pathetic and highly “vomiting stuff”. Always I have to persuade myself to watch these clowns e.g. nulland, psaki, kerry etc. Something like “you have to go through this raw material in order to better understand the complex situation, incl. reading the body language and rhetorical/semantic juggling of these subhuman evil entities”. Well, I assume not being the only one going through this emotional trauma while watching and getting understanding of the geopolitical freak show… Wish to all of you the strongest nerves… ;)
Featured article now at top of ZeroHedge (i.e. “sticky,” doesn’t move down the page as other posts are added):
Russia Says Has Photos Of Ukraine Deploying BUK Missiles In East, Radar Proof Of Warplanes In MH17 Vicinity
Includes same video clip as this post plus three additional images. 44,000+ reads in the first two hours since posting.
Long time ago Marshall McLuhan proffered the concept that the Medium is the Message.
Russia needs to get to the 21st Century on presentation of its message.
RT is a joke. The military using the wrong plane is a joke. The translation is a joke.
And the truth is strangled in the crib.
The West would have paid millions for this resul as sabotage project.
The question is about Russian society and government: when the hell are they going to get with it?
Putin sent in front of cameras with shiny skin.
This presentation is unbearable.
They do media like its a GRAD attack. Fire away and they think they win.
Do they still have Party apparatchiks in charge of everything? Alcohol, ideological revanchism, or just institutional stupidity?
This is embarrassing.
Lead the world? A great super power?
Zip your fly, comrade. The cameras are rolling.
Even North Korea packages their insanity better.
What a tragic blunder.
You come to the world with the truth and your pants are around your ankles.
And people are dying.
I know Russia has suffered a massive brain drain of talent, but this past twelve hours is disgraceful.
Win the goddamn war, Vlad. Because Russia is getting shellacked everywhere else by her own hand.
Where are the people who did Sochi?
It would have been apt to present this in black and white not color. It looks and sounds like 1950.
The Russians have NO IDEA how to run an information campaign. The Americans are NOT going to be interested in the information set out here. On the contrary, the Russians need to explain to everyone left right and centre a simple and fully explained version of events. No one is going to do this work for them, and if they think they are, then the naivety is unbelievable. Sorry to cast a downer, but they need to understand that the West invents a narrative, and keeps hold of that narrative at all costs. The narrative is built and run in order to be able to withstand other information that may inconveniently arise. The narrative doesn’t change to fit the facts, the facts change to fit the narrative.
Saker, I don’t know if you have seen these pictures, they’re in Russian, just found them in Twitter.
pic.twitter.com/Yp4GvMDjvD
pic.twitter.com/3FaYdHMygN
pic.twitter.com/dSPtb1BPfJ
pic.twitter.com/tifkee3Z3e
pic.twitter.com/L8yW3kgId2
pic.twitter.com/qcsE57h00V
pic.twitter.com/4S89xGuFPb
pic.twitter.com/X3mjiLVFFJ
pic.twitter.com/CfKg4eeWDi
pic.twitter.com/kNEDFhelqS
pic.twitter.com/ZPVpggRxfc
russian.rt.com/article/41844 pic.twitter.com/ClcC8YIp8k
http://stat.multimedia.mil.ru/multimedia/video/clips/more.htm?id=5086@morfVideoAudioFile
Hope you’re feeling better, take care of yourself.
In contrast, Obama’s only job is to look good and not make too many mistakes while reading his teleprompter.
Dear Saker
Everything is changing quickly.
This e-newspaper had written positively about Russia in the past, now not any more.
There is a turn of 180 degrees.
This newspaper call Putin fascist and compare Putin with Hitler.
Those commentators who tried to defend Russia have been banned for good and their comments deleted.
The newspaper in question is advance.hr
I think the newspaper and journalist have received a warning that they could end up into an unknown jail or lose the job.
Here is link on the newspaper and the particular article.
http://www.advance.hr/vijesti/putinofilija-kao-fasizam-najodvratnije-vrste/
An Insert
The article was written by Mr.Marjanovic
Te manifestacije su podjednako ogavne kao i najvjerniji nacisti koji su si smještali metak u čelo čuvši da je njihov vođa u bunkeru kapitulirao na isti način 30. travnja 1945. Putinomanija počinje i poprimati brojne elemente nacističkog fanatizma, nerijetko su najveći obožavatelji ovog ujedno i obožavatelji onog. Neki od najžešćih Hitlero-fila danas su novi Putino-fili, što se očituje i u njihovim izjavama.
This is a continuing operation. Obama just read yesterday’s script. Guardian still covering up as much as possible despite Donetsk assault leaking through BBC and Guardian journalists. UA army now admitted attacking Donetsk, not just Nazguard. NBC reporter saw tanks approach crash site. Trains poised to leave for Kharkiv?
Next false flag could be nuclear plant related.
All issues of sanctions, international investigations, etc., = disinfo.
RF will enter next phase of military campaign today, hints will emerge tomorrow.
Dang! I saw it and called it on the last thread! Let me see if I can re-post the last thing I said there, and maybe even do it right this time, because it’s even more relevant now:
It’s so hard to keep any perspective in the midst of all these horrors. sigh. But if you really just grit your teeth and look at it all, the Donbass is just one battlefield in a much, much larger war. And in the grand scheme of things, not only has Russia won many bigger battles in both the political and economic arenas but actually, if you really think about, in terms of marketing! Just not by creating a false image, but by presenting the real thing: genuine cooperation and adherence to International Law. Meanwhile our image is in tatters — the Emperor is getting more and more nekkid every darned minute.
This whole thing will spin out based on how much genuine fear the European leaders still have for us vs. both the profit motive of their oligarchs and any real ability their pols may have to outmaneuver us behind the scenes. This revolution won’t be televised, of course; it’ll just emerge. And the only real wild card — with the accent on wild — is how crazy various Zionist nutcakes of the both Jewish and Christian varieties will get. I don’t think there’s a bottom to that pit but I think we’re about to find out.
“Lets face it, the current news suggests that the time to do so has finally arrived!” (15:52) — I think you may be right.
“a deliberate false flag on the part of the Nazi junta in Kiev”
We should strive to make precise attributions. The military junta in Kiev has the deciding power of a marionette. Maybe less. If it was a false flag (I definitely think it was) the order and plan to carry it out was Washington.
If the thugs in Kiev are ever brought to trial, one must hope they get to name the names where the orderes were actually coming from.
Obama seems desperate to firm up support against Russia right away. Repeated a bunch of conjectures about Russian involvement in eastern Ukraine as proof that Russia and Mr Putin personally are responsible for the tragedy – and by the way, would he please let Kiev decimate the militia without ‘interference’.
OK. I was wrong. I don’t think Russia downed the plane. I originally thought it made the most sense. Especially if there were a bio-terrorism plot to stop. Figured Russia (and US) would know immediately — and the truth would step forward. When Russia seemed to hang-back I figured it was to re-engineer a story. Sometimes gathering facts is not as effective as affirming truth.
The aggressive pile-on of the sayanim-MSM turned-me off. I began to re-assess the spinning of this story based on the fact sayanim lie and obfuscate constantly. Had they been more circumspect I might still suspect Russia.
The moment Amercans like me accept the Russian military version of events OVER the US MIC and MSM — its game, set and match.
Please God. Make. It. Stop.
On a cheerier note, a positive article from Mr Bhadrakumar in relation to Iran-Russian contact: http://blogs.rediff.com/mkbhadrakumar/2014/07/20/putin-its-your-payback-time/
First thought, within the first 2 minutes of the video.
While the interpreter is competent, Russia needed to give us the best interpreter they had, with as minimal an accent as possible.
I always had a hard time getting through a Russian accent, at least until I met my wife. But even with this interpreter, I find myself having to pay full attention to everything she says.
There are now three or four different sources putting a military fighter near the Boeing. The first one, remember, was the alleged Spanish ATC during his last frantic tweets immediately after the crash, before his persona dissolved away. Then there were one or two witnesses who also said that. Now we have the Russian radars. It will be hard for the
The Russians added that a SU-25 armed with a R-60 air to air missile could have shot down MH17.
All the pro-Ukies are screaming on Twitter that this can’t be true, since SU-25’s can’t fly above 7km.
I have found one person that says it can be done: “Su-25 w/ R-73 VYMPEL missiles could fly at 6KM high, restart to climb, lock on, fire”.
I don’t know enough to be able to judge for myself, much less tweet a rebuttal – could a knowledgeable person go into this in more depth, please?
Does it occur to any one here that Russia doesn’t own the western media? Israel/zionist Jewish oligarchs do. They determine what the people of the capitalist west gets to see and read. Whatever Russia does will be ignored, ridiculed or twisted by these ghoulish parasites, so the hoopla about “presentation” is a red herring. This report by the Russian military will probably never be seen on the ZPC media, at most they will misrepresent what was said to ridicule or discredit the information. The new facts shown are what is important here.
The new info about the “Su-25” that popped up, then descended again can explain the witness accounts of vividly seeing and hearing the fighter jet. My guess the other 2 jets which Carlos (spainbuca) reported had been tailing the airliner were guides for the low altitude jet. The attacking jet staying low below the view of the radar Carlos had access to, quickly rising, shooting down the airliner, and then dropping back low again. Unless there is a shot down fighter jet found, I think the parachutes people saw were debris from the airliner. Nobody I saw reported seeing any fighter crashing or smoking, so I doubt one of the Ukrainian fighters involved was shot down, as has been speculated to account for the parachute sighting.
вот так
The word on the street is that Ukies are planning to attack their own Nuclear station and blame it on the Anti-Nazi resistance. They’re prepared to destroy everything in order to please their Washington masters.
One western bankster said:
If you aren´t paranoid, you have too little information
I have just one question: is out there anybody who thinks that in 2014 in a war zone it is possible to down a civilian airliner without being detected?
Ukraine: “Bloody guerrillas won’t let MH17 bodies leave area,” says Yatsenyuk
Arseniy Yatsenyuk threatening Russia.
He uses colourful language. Very befitting a PM.
Deserves treason charges brought onto him.
Ukraine: “Bloody guerrillas won’t let MH17 bodies leave area,” says Arseniy Yatsenyuk
Threatening Russia with colourful language.
If Washington thinks their lie is about to be exposed perhaps they will go for broke and initiate another ‘operation’ like the nuke plant that people are now suggesting.
The problem I have with a ‘run from Washington’ script here is that the military and CIA analysts must know that you can’t hide this kind of stuff from the Russians. If they ran the show it must be only the political wing ‘facts be damned’ crowd. Either that or we are closer to hot war than I care to believe.
Obama stopped short of threatening NATO involvement if Russia didn’t ‘cease and desist’, but not by much.
How desperate are these people?
For thee wider public to get any kind of proof and truth as to what really happend it needs information from the very same media outlets which are lying permanently. The Atlanicist clearly have the wider public given the direction they want. Truth and edjucation are not among them. Edjucation today is via blogs and social networks but to give the wider population a certain believ and opinion making and hence direction you still need the common media outlets like TV, well known physical and online Newspapers and Radio…
@ Anonymous 16;42
A few days ago, when the rebels were winning, some Ukie did tweet something about their nuclear power plants as their weapon of last resort to “take Europe down with us”
https://twitter.com/BungeeWedgie/status/489079819322527744/photo/1
The dreadful zionist propaganda that demonised Russia at the time of the Olympic Games was warning enough of the intent to make Putin the West’s next target. At the time Blair’s British Olympic Games, the zionist mainstream media lionised Saudi Arabia for allowing one token female (with the authority of her ‘guardian’) to compete in a running event.
The same Saudi Arabia where gays are imprisoned and subject to weekly torture in the form of thousands of lashes. Yet it was the ‘abuse’ of ‘homosexuals’ that was the given excuse for attacking the Russian Olympics.
Now this false flag destruction of the airliner makes it clear that the same target has been painted on Putin’s back that was previously painted on Saddam and Gaddafi. Iraq and Libya were both destroyed, but by very different means in each case. The West now intends to destroy the forces that control Russia, and their ruthless determination will know no bounds.
Russia, and Russia’s supporters, are making the fatal mistake of saying “let’s be reasonable, chaps, and apply good logic to this situation”. The West doesn’t play that way- ask the ghost of Gaddafi. Gaddafi was a bulwark, keeping Islamic terror out of North and Central Africa. He assumed his success met the agenda of the West, because he assumed the West meant what it said publicly.
The West is a monster, without pity or remorse. The ultimate leaders of the West, people like Tony Blair, Rupert Murdoch and Bill Gates, belong to death cults, and actively crave the death of billions of Humans. Those they command beneath them (puppets like Obama) moronically believe they are simply playing ‘hardball’- ensuring their side wins big as if its just some sports-game.
Putin just doesn’t get it. He honestly believes he’s attempting to manipulate a bunch of mostly impotent madmen. People who do ‘crazy’ things (like destroying Syria and Libya) because they are too stupid to find ‘rational’ solutions.
The rulers of the West are anything but mad. Their absolute evil is 100% rational. They exploit the fact that fundamentally good people cannot perceive absolute evil, and thus find it infinitely hard to identify the right path needed to properly combat evil.
Why did Putin allow himself to be persuaded to break the contract with Iran to provide Iran with a state-of-the-art air defence system? Even the West’s analysts pointed out that sanctions cannot apply to systems purely intended for defence. Putin had no excuse save for the fact he chose to do the bidding of Israel and Saudi Arabia.
Why did Putin not send peace-keepers into East Ukraine, and prevent war there? The West has acknowledged, reluctantly, that Ukraine splitting in two along ethnic lines is no different from Czechoslovakia doing the same, with full EU approval. Yes, a lot of complete idiots argued that Russia entering Novorussia was a ‘childish’ simple-minded solution, but it’s not as if Putin had any cause to take advice from such fools.
Putin won’t even give official support to the Humans of Novorussia, boasting in conference after conference that Russia would never do such a thing. Do the zionist monsters of the US Congress hesitate in giving official support to the genocidal filth of Israel? Of course not.
The humiliation of Russia by the West’s press at their Olympic Games made Russia seem weaker than at any time in its modern history. This false flag proves how deadly serious the West is in moving things to the next level. Something truly unthinkable is rapidly approaching.
Point 1. In “western” (anglo-saxon) culture there is this tendency to focus on the presentation/packaging instead of the factual material evidence that speaks for itself. In this instance the focus should not be on the RF military’s failure to present the facts in a high-end glossy binder.
Point 2. It is Confirmed as BUSTED. There is Mr. Robert Parry’s source – “that U.S. intelligence agencies do have detailed satellite images of the likely missile battery that launched the fateful missile, but the battery appears to have been under the control of Ukrainian government troops dressed in what look like Ukrainian uniforms.” http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/20/what-did-us-spy-satellites-see-in-ukraine/– [Mr. Parry is an award winning former Associated Press reporter]
Point 3. As Mr. Putin stated the US-RF relationship has ended so we can expect the RF will not sit silent and allow false accusations –“blame the new boogeyman, Russia” – to go unanswered.
Point 4. A question. Why should E-Ukraine freedom fighters be critised for storing the MH17 victims’ bodies in refrigerated trains? I noticed western MSM first reported the rail containers were refrigerated then they dropped the “refrigerated.” Where should they be stored if likely all funeral service providers are overwhelmed?
Pleasant afternoon.
Anon Mongoose
http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/20/what-did-us-spy-satellites-see-in-ukraine/
From the reporter who broke Iran-Contra
As I haven’t yet seen this posted on this thread:
http://rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-plane-russia-ukraine/
I won’t comment on media glitz as that tends to throw me off – any presentation that has had time to glitz things up has had time to become slightly suspect in my book, but then I come from a background that didn’t have tv until the ’60’s, so my mind isn’t entirely visually comprimised.
The presentation above reminds me of the presentation given by US representative to the UN concerning missile sites in Cuba. It was accurate then, if only in black and white, and it is accurate now.
The question is really now what did that US satellite see and why haven’t THOSE pictures been released? Did any reporter ask that question of Obama?
I echo the comment above that if there had been satellite pictures incriminating the separatists you can bet your bottom -whatever the new currency will be- those pictures would have been released!
AGS and Anonymous 16:42,
It does look like things will get a lot worse before they get better; Kiev and the Empire are both struggling for survival and likely to use any means they can though that one would hardly benefit any of TPTB interested in long-term planning. Regardless, I think we all ought to be praying hard and preparing ourselves for more ugly.
Andrew,
Left a reply on the other thread.
Any chance the Ukies could have flown the fighter so as to attract a Rebel AA device, right up to the ( low & off track) airliner, then pulled hard away when they detected the incoming, leaving the poor Malaysians to take the hit? Is that a feasible scenario?
the pessimist said…21 July, 2014 15:58
“I am inclining more to think this was a desperate Ukie hatched plot (perhaps with some US State Dept goons) where the perpetrators failed to take into account the state of current surveillance technology.”
I agree the false flag was set-up and done quickly. It was probably done to counter the failure in the “cauldron” and provide a distraction for the Israeli murder campaign in Gaza, so needed to be set-up very quickly. This can account for the rough edges, amateur/crude approach to detail and the use of local Ukrainian assets in a lot of the aspects of the operation. No time to properly plan and prepare a thorough job, using only the professionals. This accounts also for the disorganised propaganda around the shootdown. There wasn’t time to set up the “evidence” for the media like is usually done, so they just had the media blitz hate, accusations and the crude, obviously quickly invented “evidence” that could be created on the fly.
One thing I am very clear on is that this war crime was the doing of the ZPC/NWO, partly using their Ukrainian quislings to carry it out. The unified media campaign and the timing to coincide with the Israeli ground invasion show the deep involvement of Israel in the decision making and underscores the Israeli role the geostrategy behind the ZPC/NWO attack on the Ukraine (and Syria, Iraq, Venezuela, etc.). Shooting down that airliner was a ZPC/NWO operation, as is all the terrorism being done in the Ukraine region now.
вот так
The SU 25 was shot down and fell nextto (or not too far) from MH17.
Saker, If RF account of event can be proved by block box data. Then RF has a valid reason to intervene: Kiev has bomb houses, factories, mines, refinery, and shot down a civilian airline. The nuclear power plan in the east is very much in danger. Does RF want to be caught off guard again with a nuke accident?
Just a theory but: plane taken down by US space based EMP, like proton rocket, probably last MH plane, and SU 25 hit it with proximity missile on way down to look like damage from SAM. Message to Putin, we can take your plane down. Political fallout massive. Great plan.
Proposed to be read (with no comment):
Beware the “chamaleon” (who can be behind MH17)
Reaction after Donetsk shelling:
“I wasn’t a separatist in the morning”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dpp20KrStc8
I think if this goes on, the entire able bodied adult population will end up joining the militia in some capacity or other. Probably good news. I mean, how do the Ukies expect to rule these people in the future? Lock them all in a big concentration camp like Gaza? Exterminate them? Novorossians will never forget what Kiev did to them.
Yes, the presentation could have been done much better. Considering the gravity of the situation – potential WW3 – you think they could have made more of an effort.
I could not help but notice that it looks like another MH flight was almost directly across from MH17 when it was shot down. Is it possible someone on the other flight would have witnessed the attack?
Please Dear God may this represent our official arrival at Peak Insanity, so that we can finally begin to approach something — anything — resembling morality or reason. Do read Joe Biden here: I think he thought he was sniping at Bush as well as Putin but this just reeks of desperation. And if we’re not at the peak, God, could You maybe just keep them confined to words instead of anything else?
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/21/us-usa-russia-biden-idUSKBN0FQ1CU20140721
Thoughts on Russian diplomacy.
I think that Mr Putin believes that serious diplomacy is to be conducted out of the public spotlight via face-to-face conversation if possible and by phone if that is not. Public pronouncements should adhere to rules of civil diplomatic engagement. Don’t publicly back your opponents into a corner – give them an out and work privately to resolve differences – Old School.
The reason many are frustrated is that the official public pronouncements from Russia are always measured and civil in tone. This is for sure on purpose and by design. Russia is not afraid and has no need of threatening rhetoric as it only serves to inflame tensions and put people in a position where compromise may become impossible.
Every opportunity has been given for compromise to succeed – acceptable compromise from the Russian perspective. Despite that the US and its allies have not accepted the offers but have continued to demand a public surrender. This is not acceptable to Russia. Now the plane incident and the attempt to use it against Russia. Intolerable. Now we will see what happens.
In addition to the NATO exercises in the Black Sea (NATO Maritime Command on a “navigation-safety mission” from Thursday 17.7 until tomorrow 22.7) that a number have mentioned, there’s also the following, which has passed without much attention…
“…NATO has sent a Deployable Communications Module to Vilnius during the week of July 14 in order to exercise the unit’s ability to rapidly move and establish command and control assets across Alliance territory in response to any crisis.
“The DCM is part of the NATO Communication and Information Systems Group (NCISG). The deployment to Lithuania was an operational readiness test designed to assess the Hungarian unit’s capabilities and responsiveness for contingency operations.
“ ‘Our mission is to deploy a satellite ground terminal and connect to the Tactical Satellite Network to facilitate extension of the NATO communication infrastructure,’ said Maj Lazlo Dozsa, the DCM Commander.
“In order to accomplish the goal of setting up secure and non-secure computer services for 30-50 users, the DCM had to deploy a wide range of equipment to include a portable satellite dish, computer servers, power generators, air conditioners, tents, communication cables, computers, fuel and other supplies.”
(from the rickrozoff site.)
I also would like to echo some of the sake’s earlier comments about unwillingness of Donbass population to go and fight for their country. They all quick to complain about Ukies but they would rather go and swim on the beach rather than fight for their freedoms. There is war and they go to the beach.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGjfjE9HCQA
Still no pictures of a BUK contrail, which I think negates it as the cause of the crash. The timing of the parachute reports could be possible debris sightings as bok tak alludes, which is sensible. BUT, the Russians report only one jet being sighted, not 2-3. Now, the previous reports of two trailing jets were made by ground observers and the alleged ATC man Carlos, but were the ground observers naked-eye or field glasses aided? The Big Lie is going to unravel by week’s end, so something else will need to happen.
MSM media is already spinning that regardless of who shot down MH17, it’s still Putin’s fault because he is supplying Donbass and thus the ’cause’ of the war.
One of Putin’s two daughters is living in the heart of the Netherlands near Den Haag / Leiden with her Dutch boyfriend, right at ground zero of MH17 propaganda with Russia-bashing Dutch prime minister, so Putin is well-informed about media situation.
For Russia to gain ground in media infowar –
Aside from overcoming amateurism, and ending Russia’s overly submissive attitude to West, Russia would need to be aggressive in across-the-board confrontation with ‘CIA-influenced media’, including
– all US (CIA) media outlets, CNN, NY Times, WashPost, Fox,
– CIA-Google (as Putin himself already mentioned)
– CIA-Wikipedia
– fellow-travellers like UK’s BBC (British Bullshite Corporation)
– fake ‘dissident news’ frauds, like that devious UK Guardian which got points for joining in the Edward Snowden hoax, but is a big Russia-bashing CIA tool, Rothschild family running its board
Russia attack on ‘CIA-influenced media’ should go globally deep and loud on 11 Sep 2001 9-11 truth, Syria false flag ‘chemical weapon attack’ last year and so on
Russian timidity in media war is unsettling … as if Russians almost agreed to roll over, like athletes bribed to lose a match regardless of strength and skill
Another possibility – http://themillenniumreport.com/2014/07/mh-17-and-nato-excercise-breeze-2014%e2%80%b3/
It also explains why they have confiscated the air traffic records from Borispol.
The Ukrainians claim to have video proof of a launcher moving to Russia. They should be asked where the video was taken and when.
There are now multiple copies of one original short video a launcher being transported rapidly on a brand new low-loader. Apart from the original, most videos claim the launcher is going towards Russia carrying 2, 3, or 4 missiles. The launcher clearly has 3 missiles on it.
The earliest copy I have come across is from 3 days ago. It is captioned
Бойовики вивозять ракетний комплекс ‘БУК’ до кордону із РФ
The LiveJournal article it came from claimed it was taken from 95 Horkoho Street, Krasnoarmiis’k, Donetsk Oblast, Ukraine. Google maps show a dual carriageway road, consistent with that on the picture. When oriented with the map, the vehicle is moving north-west further into Ukraine. Unfortunately there is no street view. Some enterprising reporter should go there.
The Russian should raise the previous incident when Ukraine shot down a civilian airliner Siberia Airlines Flight 1812 and lied about it, claiming they were not involved.
The Russian also need to raise the issue of the Polish troops and artillery landing at Odessa just before the shooting down of MH17. If they are there, then NATO troops have been allowed into a war zone.
Russia also needs to raise the issue of the US-supplied Huey helicopters shown flying through Dnieperpetrovsk. My impression is the Ukies thought they were getting Apaches but were given these instead.
There is also proof of Polish mercenaries acting as guards and advisers to various Ukraine military and government officers. The ones clearly identified are most likely associated with a well-known Polish PMC. I have been intending to write a short note about this, but events have outpaced me.
The Ukrainians still appear to be using helicopters recalled from UN missions for combat activity whilst still in UN white.
Finally and most importantly, the Russians need to show evidence for the war crimes committed by the Ukraine regime.
I don’t care if the presentation wasn’t as smooth and glitzy as we’re used to when our ‘leaders’ present such information.
A satellite and a radar image are what they are, no matter if a RU general presents them with a bad translation or with singing girls in skimpy dresses dancing around.
The truth is the truth – and I believe Putin had this all along but is coming out with it now when he sees that a) the western politicians are baying like mad dogs, and b) the USA is not doing one little thing to show that they know what happened.
The presentation doesn’t matter.
In fact, I personally find this more convincing than a smooth multi-media event.
Ukraine is a member state of the European Civil Aviation Conference (ECAC). The ECAC sets all the rules for aircraft and operating procedures in its member states. This authority was granted by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) in 1956, ref. ICAO Document 7676, ECAC/1
ECAC document on Code of Conduct on Cooperation in the Field of Civil Aviation Accident/Incident Investigation, with a few additions by the ECAC, fall to Annex 13 of the Convention on International Civil Aviation. This ECAC code was signed onto by Ukraine in Aug. 2013.
A few things to note in Annex 13.
5.6 The investigator-in-charge shall have unhampered access to the wreckage and all relevant material, including flight recorders and ATS records, and shall have unrestricted control over it to ensure that a detailed examination can be made without delay by authorized personnel participating in the investigation.
5.7 Effective use shall be made of flight recorders in the investigation of an accident or an incident. The State conducting the investigation shall arrange for the read-out of the flight recorders without delay.
As it sits now, the investigators are in Kiev and not allowed to visit the site. Kiev athorities have taken the ATS recordings/documents from the ATC center and are not allowing them to be heard or seen. This appears to be in violation of the Code of Conduct they signed on to just 10 months ago.
Hypothetical.
Russia knew very early on that Kiev was responsible for the tragedy. They called for a full normal investigation and provided proofs sufficient to show they could back this up to the US privately. This gave the Americans (and Kiev) time to come up with some face-saving way of admitting responsibility but likely intended to use the information as leverage to help in their efforts to force an acceptable settlement in Ukraine. The US persisted in playing the game in public of putting the blame on Russia and the separatists. Russia has now accepted that they will not back down from their lies and fired the first public shot across the bow with the release of some surveillance data. There is a final opportunity to back down but the door is closing. Putin has had enough.
Maybe I’m all wet. We will see.
I like your hypothesis. I think it makes a lot of sense that Russia would give the US/Kiev a way out, similar to how the situation in Syria seemed to down. A wild animal is dangerous, but a wild animal backed into a corner is VERY dangerous
Dear Yvonne:
Thanks for the links. If you ensure http:// is included, it makes life a lot easier for others.
The Yanks are going to be really p*ss*d by the finally video –
“wow, those d*mn Roooskies have computers, with high resolution point and click color screens.”
Once again, Yvonne, thanks for the links.
http://en.itar-tass.com/world/741675
“MOSCOW, July 21./ITAR-TASS/. Russia’s Federal Agency for Air Transportation said it was ready to share all information on the Malaysian Boeing-777 passenger plane crash to an ICAO-led group of international experts investigating the accident.
“With a view to ensuring an impartial international investigation of the circumstances and causes of the air crash, the Agency is ready to provide, upon request, air monitoring data it has at its disposal. If need be, the Agency is also ready to provide experts to assist with the investigation of the Malaysian Boeing accident,” the Agency said on Monday.
….Lieutenant-General Andrei Kartapolov, head of the Main Operations Department of the Russian Army General Staff, said the Defense Ministry would hand over all materials regarding the Boeing accident to European and Malaysian experts.
“The materials prepared by the Russian Defense Ministry will be handed over to experts from leading European countries and Malaysia today,” he said. “I hope they will help to conduct an objective investigation of the tragedy.”
“The Russian Defense Ministry will continue to post information on new facts related to the Malaysian Boeing-777 plane crash,” Kartapolov said.”
Meanwhile in LaLa land:
“NEW YORK, July 21. /ITAR-TASS/. Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko denied the Russian Defense Ministry’s statement that a Ukrainian plane was allegedly flying along with the Malaysian Boeing-777 passenger jetliner that crashed in eastern Ukraine on July 17.
“That’s not true. We are open to any inspection. When the Russian (Defense) Ministry makes such a statement, it must provide proof. The sky over Ukraine is monitored by many satellites and air defense systems. Everyone knows that all Ukrainian planes were on the ground several kilometres away (from the crash site) at the time of the accident,” Poroshenko told CNN on Monday.”
http://en.itar-tass.com/world/741687
He may well not be aware of what went down – my thought anyway.
But something particularly interesting is that rather than coming from Russia as Ukraine is claiming, buk number 312 appears to be a Ukrainian buk. The evidence for that is in the video below, uploaded 5th March of this year, where we can see a number of Ukrainian buks all lined up in a place called Horlika (or Gorlovka). The third buk in the line is number 312.
Соледар боевая техника Украина – YouTube
Could the lightweight R-60 air-to-air missile have caused the damage we see to the wings and the total disintegration of the fuselage in midair?
The BUK missile has a 70 kg high-explosive warhead with shrapnel. The would presumably puncture small holes throughout the airframe. In non of the photos of the multiple pieces of the aircraft (mainly side panels) have I seen holes. The only warhead damage seen is to to what I understand to be the upper surface of the left wing. These are not random holes but cuts made by wires or rods expanding in a straight line.
The location of the detonation must have been above the front part of the fuselage. The roof of the fuselage must have been split open, with larger and larger pieces of fuselage torn off by the airflow. Total disintegration would have taken several seconds, with flight recorders still working.
The explosive debris expands outward and and backward along the top of the wing. The backward movement would be explained if the missile was coming from a forward direction. As far as I can understand, the pattern of damage on the wing could be explained by a single continuous-rod warhead with multiple zigzag edges making the individual markings.
It is usually claimed that a single MANPAD would not bring down a multi-engine airliner. MANPADs have infrared guidance and would usually hit the engines without destroying the airframe. In the footage of the downed An-26 we see the plane descending with one engine burning. There are instances of pilots bringing Su-25s back to base with only one engine.
R-60 is also infrared guided. Would it not hit the engine? Maybe not, at least if it is fired from the front. The missile also has a proximity fuze, either the standard Strizh optical fuse or the Kolibri active radar fuse (R-60K). Both would explode in the proximity of the airframe without hitting the engine.
One question remains. How did the missile end up above the fuselage?
Sorry for the blunder with the links I provided, got carried away to post them quickly and didn’t check. Thanks to Yonatan for pointing it out, I’ll keep it in mind next time I do this.
Yvonne from Mexico
I for one don’t fault the Russians for lacking the marketing bs techniques of the Americans. If they had good marketing skills they would not be Russians. Nor do I find the Americans particularly effective at that. They are effective only because their own audience is misinfored dulled down to the point of catatonia. Do you really think the cheap shows put on by the Colin Powels and the Donald Rumsfelds were better? Really? What skills, marketing or otherwise did the previous US president have? Wasn’t he like unbearably dumb to watch? And yet he served out his two terms wrecking everything and reading the prompter. Stop blaming the Russians for not being at the level of Americans in general phoniness.
Next false flag could be to attack the corpse train in between Donetsk and Kharkiv and blame it on Novorossia. I assume total surveillance is being conducted by all interested parties.
That would be the easiest to pull off and whip up mass hysteria without any actual proof.
The current argument by pro-kiev individuals is that the Su-25 only has a ceiling height of 7500m and so it could not have made the shot at 10,000m.
This is true for the standard Su-25.
This is chiefly due to it not having a pressurised cockpit.
However, the Ukraine air force does not have standard Su-25.
They have Su-25M1, which does have a ceiling height of 10,000m.
They converted their entire fleet over to Su-25M1.
http://www.redstar.gr/Foto_red/Eng/Aircraft/Su_25M1.html
I don’t know and can’t seem to confirm if the Su-25M1 has a pressurised cockpit or not, but given the modifications to the cockpit and the increased ceiling height, it is not unreasonable to assume that a pressurisation modification has been made.
Watch now as I have posted the proof here the site is DDoS’d, hacked or taken down by irate little gnatzis who lurk the halls of their enemies, because it destroys their arguments.
VIDEO NATO-democracy in Ukraine
BBC
Neo-Nazi threat in new Ukraine: NEWSNIGHT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SBo0akeDMY
As Larchmonter has been pointing out, should Kiev manage to take Novorossia, all questions about MH17 become moot.
From Colonel Cassad (english), a Strelkov statement:
The enemy broke into Debaltsevo with 15 tanks. There is ongoing fighting with the National Guard right in Dzerzhinsk. The Ukr offensive continues on all fronts, including under Luhansk.
The time is coming when Russia has to, eventually, make a final decision: will it support the Russians in Donbass for real or will it “dump” them finally and irrevocably. The time for everything else is already lost. Three months of inaction allowed the enemy to build up forces and to create a combat capable army. At least, sufficiently capable for destroying numerically small semi-unarmed militia squads with tanks and artillery.
Analysis at the link.
Please, could somebody explain me why need I to log in to comment in the Russian blog “Saker”?
Is it not ridicules to ask me to log in using my Face Book account, so to provide my personal data.
In that case CIA can find me and send to jail or I might lose a job.
the seps need to grow their numbers!! A separatist army of 80 thousand men can win the war. They could use older armour. Before few weeks it was written that the militia could operate older types of helicopters and airplanes…What happened?
What’s the situation in Donieck now ? It is very important, because Kiev junta is trying to prevent Malysian and Dutch experts from reaching crash site.
Andrew,
This is too funny. “Interesting information”? That’s all barefaced lying.
The best thing is about that video, where they claim it must be in a city that the military controls because of the advertising.
The problem? That’s a CHAIN of car shops, that doesn’t even have a shop in that city!
But hey, why check facts? After all the Russian military knows no Putin fan will even bother to check these facts. So they just pull things out of thin air.
Undamaged Passports
This reeks of 9/11. I have had several passports and none look as good as the ones in the video.
http://i.imgur.com/0CaDey0.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/18EYICa.jpg
Putin should really but his own men on this. This reeks of a set-up if he relies on the so called independent experts.
Fwd from Canuckistan:
While we may not want to speculate on the significance of the article published by the Moscow Times below, it should be noted that this “organization” was being pushed very hard by a few Ukie-Canucks (aka: pro-junta) as the only media source to trust, as opposed to RT/etc that are merely RF “propaganda” sources.
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/no-evidence-tying-russia-to-downed-ukrainian-aircraft/503588.html
As a footnote, if this is the only source that the “West” should trust, what does that say about the “official” narrative?
Regarding the junta’s military push I have to hope that it is a desperate act to try and wrest control of the area in the next few days if possible and perhaps disrupt the accident investigation. If it has been well planned in advance that doesn’t bode well. Working against them is the investigation itself and the presence of foreign media there now. Things do seem to be coming to a head.
Putin needs to write another editorial in a western newspaper like the one about Syria.
Now, what happens about the rebels?
Taking a pasting, the enabling of which was the very purpose of the shooting down of the plane.
I was looking at a very angry man, but a man under control. He will be surrounded with people who are also angry, but less restrained.
Putin has fed Obama an easy lob. He has a chance to throw Poroshenko and the junta under the bus and still retain some dignity. The US, if they take that route, will not be dragged into this as the sponsors of the killing. But if Obama’s team make the wrong choice then the next revelations will discuss just why the US’s new ‘super secret’ satellite was where it was, when it was – that presence was no accident and required forward planning.
I reckon 24 hours is about the deadline – that makes a news cycle globally. Enough time for everyone who gets the chance to see, read and hear what has been said and for people that matter to think things over.
Then comes the next news cycle.
What next?
A A very prescient article by Mike Whitney from 9 July, discussing the real reasons for the placement of troops in Afghanistan (along a pipeline route?) and Ukraine’s sale of part of its gas pipeline infrastructure to US corporations (Hi Biden Jr).
The crucial paragraph
“So all Putin has to do is sit tight and he wins, mainly because the EU needs Moscow’s gas. If energy supplies are terminated or drastically reduced, prices will rise, the EU will slide back into recession, and Washington will take the blame. So Washington has a very small window to draw Putin into the fray, which is why we should expect another false flag incident on a much larger scale than the fire in Odessa. Washington is going to have to do something really big and make it look like it was Moscow’s doing. Otherwise, their pivot plan is going to hit a brick wall.”
Remember this was written July 9 2014.
Petri Krohn,
“One question remains. How did the missile end up above the fuselage?”
And there you have it.
Putin is merely going, “Please proceed, Mr. President”, which should be a tactic w/which Obama is quite familiar…
But in terms of facts on the ground, Gayle’s point above is spot-on. And if you remember, Putin did NOT want these guys to vote for separation and has consistently been coming out in favor of a negociated, federalized solution. He’s also got access to a lot of data we’ll never, ever get re: what’s going on both inside and outside Russia and playing the whole thing rather cautiously with what looks to me like one guidepost being limiting as far as possible the loss of innocent life. (Is there anyone here who really believes that escalating this mess at any point up to now would actually have saved lives rather than expanding the bloodshed? I’d defer to Saker on this but I can’t think of any time upping the ante actually led to fewer lives lost by the time peace actually happened.) So this is kind of a long-winded way of saying I don’t really think he’ll respond militarily to this provocation either: he knows it’s just another trap. But I think he also knows we’re getting really desperate, are unconstrained by any moral considerations whatever and thus even more dangerous than we’ve been. I would not at all call it defeat on his face, but he knows the full score and while he’s certainly bearing up well enough under the strain, it can’t not show. If Biden or Obama or any of the Kreepy Kiev Krudbuckets don’t show any, well, you’ve got a choice between calling them Evil, delusional, or both.