Finally! The Russian military has decided to speak out about some of what it knows about what happened to MH17. It was a typical Russian event: the interpreters were nothing short of *terrible* (I speak as a former military interpreter myself), the visual aids were badly designed (the shape of a SU-24 bomber was used to represent a totally different SU-25 close air support aircraft), and there was no Q&A. See for yourself:
Still, a few very interesting things came out of this press conference.
First, the Ukies have been caught lying about their military aircraft in the area of the disaster. They had claimed that no UAF aircraft were in the area. The Russians have shown the recorded radar tracks which reveal the following: there was what appears to have been a military aircraft (with no transponder) flying below 5000m which suddenly began climbing just before MH17 was hit by some kind of missile. This unidentified aircraft then stayed and observed as MH17 fell to the ground. The Russians added that a SU-25 armed with a R-60 air to air missile could have shot down MH17. Maybe. But what is certain is that the civilian radars did detected this strange Ukie aircraft.
Now, these radar tracks are from *civilian* radars. The Russians apparently are not willing to share the data from their military radars. This is why this mysterious Ukie aircraft ‘appears’ at 5’000m altitude and then ‘disappears’ again, but you can be certain that their military radars, especially on their A-50 AWACs did track that aircraft before and after its strange maneuver. Again, I think that the Russians hope that the experts will come to the correct conclusions on the basis of what they have shown today and that they will not have to reveal more. But we can be certain that they have the full picture and that they know exactly what happened.
Second, the Russians are challenging their American colleagues to show the images they claim show the launch of the BukM1 rocket. They also point out at the interesting coincidence that an US experimental launch detection satellite was exactly over the area at the moment of the tragedy. Clearly, they are tossing the world experts some kind of lead here, but I am not sure what this is.
Third, the Russians have shown their own space-based imagery which shows that one battery of BukM1 had been moved just prior to the incident (See for yourself here). It will be interesting to see if the Ukies explain what is shown on these picture and, if yes, how?
As a public information this conference gets a C+ but as a lead for experts I would give it a much higher A-. We know have hard proof that the Ukies lied at least twice. They lied about the footage of the Buk missiles being moved back to Russia (the footage was taken in Ukie-occupied territory) and they most definitely lied when they denied having any military aircraft in the area when in reality they had one in the immediate proximity of MH17. That is a huge lie which the Ukies will have a very hard time dismissing.
As I said in my first post about MH17, I have no hope whatsoever that the western plutocracy will ever admit that the junta did it. Ditto for the corporate presstitues of the MSM, but I do hope that the world will see this tragedy for what is clearly was: a deliberate false flag on the part of the Nazi junta in Kiev. As David Chandler correctly points out about 9/11, the proof of a cover up is in itself already a proof of a conspiracy.
The Saker
Saker Message:
@anon 16:18
“Next false flag could be nuclear plant related.”
That’s what I’ve been fearing from day one of this zionazi attack on russia!
By this exercise of Machiavelian insanity, they have shown what they are capable of – to mass-murder! – if it helps their sick cause.
Hopefully, Russia has an ace of its own if it comes to that vile kind of provocation.
The western MSM is ignoring the Russian presser. The Kremlin sucks at anglo PR. It can’t be subtle, intellectual, diplomatic and delayed by a day or two. Answers to white house accusations need to come in minutes and in sound bytes and use buzzwords Americans can understand or be forced to learn about, such as “false narrative” or “false flag”, Neocon, GLADIO, UNA UNSO, etc. Russia is too polite and diplomatic to earn respect from the average American or Anglo. Not mentioning any of the above buzzwords has probably been more responsible for journalists not using them either, than the conspiracy theory that they are not allowed to discuss those buzzword topics. It is the Kremlin’s responsibility to use such buzzwords if it wants those ideas discussed. Example of what is wrong with Kremlin PR is the way the NYTimes today wrote about the way Russia “implied” something derivative to the truth about “certain countries it would not name”. Thatis too cool and subtle, something German intellectuals might get but not Joe the Plumber. Americans need the truth to be hit with a hammer. No innuendo or implications need apply.
Also Russia needs to openly say that they fear a nuclear power plant false flag while naming names of the likely perpetrators in advance. That is the only way to prevent it. They should be saying that the liklihood of another terror attack increases as the previous false flag is believed. The Kremlin has not directly stated why this MH17 thing benefits the White House or how a nuclear accident will allow a NATO invasion. It needs to publicly discuss false flag scenarios
Anonymous 18:54,
If you click on the Name/URL place, you can enter whatever “name” you want to us and ignore the URL part of it. I think that’s what most people do here, although some of the trolls have a couple of different monikers, just in case. ;~)
Bravo Saker, hai detto esattamente le parole che mi aspettavo da te..
Un saluto
If they detonate one of the nuclear stations, it would also mean good bye to Crimea, and once again, everything will be blamed on Russia
What has happened to Juan? Hope he is ok.
Anyone else have problems with these Captchas?? I have to go through lots of them to finally get one correct – And I am no bot…
Ukraine forces have taken the Donetsk airport.
Renewed civilian shelling will proceed apace, until they take the flattened heap of rubble that used to be Donetsk.
Anonymous 19:50 and everyone else worried about poor Russian marketing skills:
Americans are used to swallowing political garbage whole but the rest of the world, and everyone calling the shots here, knows better. Putin wasn’t talking to us, he was talking to everyone else, and on Russia’s terms and in Russia’s way. There was no need to waste time on slickness here and effective packaging — not in the least! In this case, AT LAST, McLuhan was wrong: the medium was… simply the vehicle: the message went out loud and clear to anyone anywhere who needed to hear it.
And finally, for once, substance actually did beat out style. It would be nice to see that continue, wouldn’t it really?
@19:50
What is the point in being fast and using buzzwords if msm (like you are correctly saying) ignores everything what comes from Russian side anyway?
The blockade is total. On the Ukrainian side it is even more than that, now comments are being disabled. Now russian separatists are hiding in civilian areas and shelling themselves there in the same time so to frame the knights of democracy who strive to free the oppressed masses of east from terrorists!
Resulting brain damage is beyond repair – may be general winter will enforce some landing on reality, but we may be past point of no return in that moment
Jet may not have been Ukie.
What’s this about? Picked up from Colonel Cassad’s page:
“Putin will hold a meeting of the security Council on the sovereignty of the Russian Federation.
On Tuesday, July 22, there will be a meeting of the security Council of the Russian Federation on ensuring the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the country. It is reported by the press service of the Kremlin.
The meeting will be held by the President of the Russian Federation Vladimir Putin. It is expected that the event will discuss the issues of sovereignty and territorial integrity of the country.”
Another link (full, 29mins):
http://youtu.be/4bNPInuSqfs?list=PLmvYvlekX2OciMy_ydae7C12hWN2kcOs0
Funny they even name and pinpoint the US spy satellite that monitored the shoot down. Yet the US,as of yet, is only huffing and puffing instead of showing any proof.
When World War IV came, it was not declared, not consented to by the people. It made enemies out of who could have been the best of friends, the Americans and the Russians. Think, you stupid fucking Americans, who would be the best friends in the world to have? The Russians. In every way, shape and form. Well, now you have killed one too many people, you have created a new resistance that will help to destroy you on your way down. Your land will turn to dust, New Orleans, Detroit, your coasts will flood, your people have no jobs, no food, no health, you put everybody in jail, spy on the world, torture, murder, steal, kill. You will now pay the price in blood for your genocidal, enslaving, imperial existence.
As a child I learned fast that America wasn’t free, I always believed in revolution. Now I’ve lived through war after war, in a police state, family and friends all dying. I didn’t think I could hate America any more – I’d already dedicated my life to revolution the best way I knew how. But I guess you learn something new every day, just how far it can go. Someday I hope I will go to New Russia and meet the beautiful people that are fighting and living there today. But I’ll be happy to die in America in a nuclear holocaust for the right of the Russian people to live in freedom, because there isn’t any happening here in America.
Eap says The City will destroy Russia.
This son of MI6 agent and MI6 agent himself,must have smoke too much jamaican today?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/10981648/Russia-vastly-outgunned-in-economic-showdown-with-West.html
In the US – it is even after the Russian Military briefing, and even with the Civilian Radar tracks, a clear plan has evolved that ‘Putin has to go’. This is no longer about Ukraine, Lugansk – this is about eliminating Russia and forcing civil war or regime change on Russia. The end game is clear. The faked tape of the DPR discussing MH17, the faked pictures which are from Western Ukraine, the 321 BUK ID – even though it is in Ukrainian hands – are to the Western Allies (ALL REAL) AND anything that Russia puts out is a lie. Today 8 hours or so ago, they bombed from the air the center of Lugansk according to women in the family friends. The Ukrainians say it was the Russian forces who shot all the 15-20 ‘registered’ dead, and any bombing was by Ethnic Russians against their own city. Now the USA is claiming they have PROOF that Russia itself or its proxies shot down the plane, AND CNN, ABC, MSNBC are all running with it. This is Yellow Journalism at its best. 1898 Spanish American War, Gulf of Tonkin, Iraq 2 – are all American YELLOW Journalist started wars, and this one with Russia is no difference. Make no mistake, the target has been Putin all along. Anything Russia says, is a lie by the CCCP (Russia) and now they are targeting the Billionaires that control 35% of the economy. All I know is Lugansk is getting pounded day and night by someone with Airplanes and heavy Artillery and Rockets and I do not believe the LPR/DPR have such amounts of ammunition.
Odessa businessman wants to open ‘concentration’camps,he calls them ‘filtration’camps.Because he says people from the Donbass have pest.
From the french version of VOR.
:http://french.ruvr.ru/news/2014_07_21/Un-homme-daffaires-appelle-a-ne-pas-accueillir-a-Odessa-les-refugies-du-Donbass-5375/
For the next conference they definitely need to roll out Anna Chapman as the interpreter. Now, that will be interpretation. Every man in the world that is not gay will listen.
On that, Russians really need to get a marketing firm.
In the court of public opinion in Canada the Ukie narrative and story is losing on all fronts. Check out this anti-Putin propaganda piece but pay more attention to how it is playing out in the comments.
If anything, the moral to this story is that when your own government cannot be trusted, operates secretly in an ideological vacuum, it’s own story really does go down the gravitational toilet with it…
ANALYSIS
Russia’s blame game over Malaysian Airlines MH17
Like Napoleon, Richard Nixon, countless others, there is a limit to plausible deniability
By Don Murray, CBC News Posted: Jul 21, 2014 8:00 AM ET Last Updated: Jul 21, 2014 8:57 AM ET
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/russia-s-blame-game-over-malaysian-airlines-mh17-1.2712764
DumpHarper!
@Anonymous:For the next conference they definitely need to roll out Anna Chapman as the interpreter. Now, that will be interpretation. Every man in the world that is not gay will listen.
Great idea but there would be a problem too: nobody would be paying any attention to what would be shown on the visual aides or even listening for contents….
but I am all for it! :-)
Cheers,
The Saker
21 July, 2014 18:54
Can’t you just post your message just filling in a name?
Strange. If that would happen here me too would quit.
It looks like Putin’s squeaky-clean approach to this is paying off:
a) Russia denies smuggling military hardware into East Ukraine: http://en.ria.ru/military_news/20140721/191082305/Russia-Denies-Smuggling-Military-Hardware-Into-East-Ukraine.html
b) Russia calls for investigation of foreign mercenaries: http://en.ria.ru/world/20140721/191084501/Russia-Calls-for-Investigation-of-Foreign-Mercenaries.html
and finally c) Poroshenko is denying any knowledge, although if spainbuca was telling the truth, he may not have had any: http://en.itar-tass.com/world/741687
Wouldn’t it be lovely if this were a concerted effort to get Kolomoiskiy, Tymoshenko, Parubiy and various other assorted nasties and end up with a federalized Ukraine for which Russia is NOT financially responsible and Poroshenko, no longer in constant fear for his life bc the goon squads are back under whatever rocks they oozed out from, can stretch himself thin trying to deal with both Russia and the EU as the effects of the European end of that finally become clear to the people living there. I kind of think that’s been the goal anyhow, actually.
Perspective of an average observer:
Tomorrow: tighten the border (but Novorussia will not cede it to Kiev), put Kiev on notice that any shelling/provocation will elicit immediate response. Shelling/provocation incidents will happen on their own and/or can be deniably manufactured. Response can be targeted such that it helps Novorussia. Tightening the border helps keep Europe in the ballpark for the moment. Donetsk and Lugansk can hold out for a long time, and a wider partisan resistance will develop, especially as the society continues to implode financially. People with cash can do a lot of things in Ukraine, they can buy a lot of services here there and everywhere.
The only question is, since Kiev will not cease fire, is how to support Novorussia with humanitarian and military aid. Despite the peaceful nature of the Donbass, there will be no shortage of radicalized manpower, especially as Donetsk is attacked. Humanitarian aid can cross the border with Russia, but the militia will have to fight a dirty guerilla war for a long time. And some other country will have to recognize Novorussia. Maybe a South American country who can see what’s coming next.
The international investigation actually works to the benefit of Novorussia, because now at least they have an identity, they have a world media with them, and their humanity does shine through, despite the demonization campaign. They are a fantastic group of people, from Strelkov to many working and country people featured in the Vice series, and their values and friendliness, USSR, Christian, Russian traditions really do communicate. Plus, there is a media fascination with the ‘dirty, filthy rebels’ and their situation in a violent environment – because they’re white people. Also, their anti-American orientation makes them unique as a commodity. I guarantee you they already have many adherents in the American hard right and international left. In addition, it will be harder for Kiev to commit atrocities in Donetsk given the current situation. Plus, the resistance only needs enough support to survive. And an effective guerilla campaign needs to be executed in the other oblasts to draw regime resources away from Donbass.
to me as a european leftist and being gay it is not easy to side with the “lumberjacks” in russia and the donbas. please understand: our natural allies are those in the west bc there never have been any in the east. the same ppl that hated us so much in the west – until they realized they can use us – are now our “friends”. obama the big friend of gays. lol. as if he cares! and it worked! whenever the word “putin” comes up, most gay ppl – understandibly – go into rage. gays are like 15-20% in Berlin. They do matter!
I am trying to built a bridge. I understand that for ppl from the east those “lifestyles” are not normal, however historically they are. Same time they never experienced the 70/80s. As in sexual revolution. this over here changed everything. again not something u experienced from poland to china. Same thing applies to our muslim, asian or black brothers. It is not mainly ignorance but the problem of “unzeitgleicher entwicklung”. in other words: developments do not happen same time everywhere on the same level. There are – unfortunatelly – many parts of this planet were it takes longer or might never happen. This is not a “we are better” but a “we were lucky to be born here”. (and so was I!!!!!!. The horror of being gay in being African….I am happy not to suffer. my shit of being myself and a decent human – and to develop that in Europe- was very, very difficult. And in most other countries it was even worse. It was a horror trip and to them it IS a horror trip!
There is a great episode in Startrek: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMyLGxoorBU
It deals with not having the experience others have and being backward. same time: being backward was true in the past for some. these days the west is not progessive either. It is stagnating for a long time too.
The one important part is: we are all brothers. Asians, Russians, Blacks, Latinos, Muslims, lesbians, gays, bisexual, you name it. If we do not understand this but follow capitalists logic – aka competition – then we will be doomed.
Having this in mind, and all the problems I have to side with russia – feeling very alone in this approach, but for the time being it is just. and that is what matters to me. what matters to you?
Yonatan:
The infamous video you link to has the following title and comment by another user.
Title:
Бойовики вивозять ракетний комплекс ‘БУК’ до кордону із РФ
The militants are taken missile system ‘BEECH’ to the border with the Russian Federation
Comment 2
Это Красноармейск, нехилый крюк для вывоза в рашку!
It Krasnoarmeysk, sickly hook for export to the Russian mafia!
Anonymous 20:41,
Yes to most of what you said. But I really don’t think Russians tend to be very vengeful people: that’s our schtick, our culture, not theirs. So, just like everything else the US is suffering from today, anything else that happens to us here will be self-inflicted. The real goal — and every leader in the world is quite aware of this whether they’ll admit it or not — is to keep us from taking the entire planet with us as we go down.
But instead of resigning yourself to glowing in the dark, why not work with other people here to figure out what we can do about it! (~; yeah, yeah, I know, here I go again, but every once in a while someone listens! ;~)
I am shocked by the statements this guy is saying:
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/21/world/europe/ukraine-poroshenko-interview/index.html?hpt=hp_c1
Ironically, it is titled as “I don’t see any differences from the tragedy 9/11”, his words, on the main page http://edition.cnn.com/ (but it will not be gone after a while).
I am saying “ironically” because what he means is different for 180 degrees than we, the Saker readers, understand. Also, it is ridiculous to say “The people in Ukraine are united as never”, or “We don’t have any conflict inside Ukrainian nation”. What then do we have on the South-East of Ukraine???
And this “president” mentioned only about solders lost, and said NO word about hundreds of civilians. BTW, this is how Ukrainian news agencies usually report about the war loses. No word about civilians.
Anonymous said :
“Russia, and Russia’s supporters, are making the fatal mistake of saying “let’s be reasonable, chaps, and apply good logic to this situation”. The West doesn’t play that way- ask the ghost of Gaddafi”.
This has been my exact argument all along, and I fear that the Russians are being perhaps just too civilized in their dealings with their western “partners” who just agree with them in their presence and do something entirely different behind their backs. For some reason president Putin and the Russians are practically bending over backwards in order to accommodate their western “colleages” at the expense of their own interests and the interests of their fellow Russians in Ukraine. It may be that they are concerned about the possible ramifications of being more pro-active in Ukraine with their support but like you rightly pointed out America is a one trick pony and right now president Putin and Russia is in their bullseye as their next target and whether Russia likes it or not war is coming to them, courtesy of the satanic psychopaths in Washington. Ghaddafi wanted to start selling Libyas oil for gold thereby bypassing the dollar and the hounds of hell were let loose on him and his country. Likewise Saddam wanted to start trading Iraqs oil for euros and again he was demonised and removed. Now president Putin is the chief mover together with China in trying to move the global system away from the dollar and he thinks the scum in Washington are going to sit idly and watch him do it ? I personally think it was a big mistake not to have moved swiftly right at the start of this whole mess instead of giving the Nazis in Ukraine the time to build up a sufficiently combat ready force. The murderous scum in Washington are DESPERATE and will stop at nothing. I sincerely hope the Russian lawmakers fully understand that.
My best guess:
7 days and we will have a war.
US will not throw Ukraine under the bus. They will not show any evidence but they will continue to insult Russia and Russian people.
Moscow will retaliate in strength the next time anything from Ukraine goes across the border and goes ‘bang’.
NATO/US will step in to ‘support the invaded democratic outpost in the east’.
That’s what Putin’s meeting about ‘territorial integrity’ is about.
That’s why he looked as he did this morning (angry but very worried) because he knew that even if he gave Obama every chance that war is what the US wants.
Anonymous said…
I have just one question: is out there anybody who thinks that in 2014 in a war zone it is possible to down a civilian airliner without being detected?
This is pure speculation, but has anybody considered the possibility that it was a rogue operation.
Carlos tweeted: – The military personnel under the orders of the Interior Minister,
– There are military personnel under the command of the Ministry
of Defense and those military personnel under the command of
the Ministry of Interior.
– The military high command did not order the launch of the missile,
– Several days ago I said so here, that the Kiev military wanted to rise up against the current president, this can be a way,under the orders of Timoshenko
So we have the Ministry of the Interior in charge. This ministry happens to be under the control of the two Neo-Nazi parties Svoboda and Right Sector is responsible for “internal” military operations directed against rebel forces in Lugansk and Donbass, in coordination with the Armed Forces. The Minister is Arsen Avokov. And who has been financing the Neo-Nazis – none other than that slimeball zionist oligarch Kolomoisky, the butcher behind the Odessa massacre. It just so happens that these two scumbags have been singled out by The Investigative Committee of Russia for what are essentially war crimes, with requests for their arrest forwarded to Interpol.
Kolomoisky is aligned with that lunatic Tymoshenko (nuke all the Russians). He also just happens to be the beneficial owner of Burisma Holdings, Ukraine’s largest private gas producer (VP Biden’s son appointed to its board of directors), which has large holdings in the Donbass and surrounding area. So the stakes for him are huge.
Kolomoisky is governor of Dnipropetrovsk region, essentially his private kingdom. Dnipropetrovsk is where the regional air traffic control centre is located.
According to Federal Air Transport Agency (Rosaviatsiya) head Alexander Neradko: “
When the plane disappeared from the radar screen it was the responsibility of an air traffic controller of the Ukrainian Dnipropetrovsk air traffic control center”. So if the plane was intentionally diverted it came from there.
To put this in context, Kolomoisky has raised his own mercenary army, complete with the BUK missiles. He finances and contols the Azov Battalion; the Aidar Battalion, the Donbass Battalion, and the Dniepr Battalion (of Odessa massacre fame). These battalions are composed of neo-nazis, mercenaries, Blackwater, ex-isreali commandos, etc. They have committed most,if not all,of the atrocities in eastern Ukraine.
Kolomoisky is a ruthless egomaniac as anyone will quickly find out on the internet. He has a tremendous amount at stake here. He is already going after Akhmetov’s assets which are mainly in the Donbass via government confiscation.
Last week Leadership of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic said property of Kolomoisky would be confiscated.He has already lost his consideable assets in Crimea.
Kolomoisky has his own power base and is essentially semi-autonomous. He rejected Poroshenko’s call for a cease-fire in June and said he would “finish off” the pro-Donetsk/Russia militia himself.
Its a mistake to view the regime in Kiev as a homogeneous entity. There are many factions at work, often in conflict with each other, in the struggle for wealth and power. They have diverse interests and agendas.
So there’s my conspiracy theory. A rogue operation.
One final note, as to the question of why is Washington protecting him/them, Kolomoisky is connected with zionist organizations worldwide,including aipac and the neo-cons.
Translation of Saker’s article into Serbian:
http://ruskarec.ru/news/2014/07/21/ministarstvo_odbrane_rf_boing_se_nalazio_u_zoni_dejstva_ukrajinskih_sist_32233.html#comment-1496523008
..
Saker, you write: “Right now, as the world discusses the fate of MH17 the Ukies have open fire with barrages of heavy artillery on Luganks and Donetsk and in every town and village and they are murdering scores of civilians in an apparent retaliation for their recent setbacks. This is the big story, not MH17.”
So, the milita STILL does not have artillery with range, but they have anti-aircraft weaponry. why?
best wishes,
Bogdan
..
This site has pictures of the wing damaged by strafing:
http://voicesevas.ru/news/yugo-vostok/2961-sbityy-malayziyskiy-boing-777-post-obnovlyaetsya.html
@ DumpHarper!
I don’t see any comments to the CBC article you posted.
How could a civilian radar determine that the approaching Ukie aircraft was a Su-25??
Anyways, here is a theory: The Ukie aircraft WAS a Su-25 and the missile WAS fired at it by the rebels. A Buk missile has an active radar seeker and needs to lock on to the target to find and destroy it. What happened was that the Sukhoi came so close to 777 that the missile lost its lock on the Sukhoi and locked on to the 777 instead. Or it actually never locked on to the Sukhoi and locked on to the 777 right away. Keep in mind that a Su-25 is a much smaller aircraft than a 777. So, if the missile “saw” both aircraft at the same time, and if these two aircraft were close enough to each other at that moment, then that may have led to the “false” lock.
Second, the whole thing was an intentional and, unfortunately, successful attempt at framing the rebels and, at the same time, Russia with them. That would explain why the Ukies had so many Buk batteries operational in the area during the days before the 777 was shot down. These batteries were looking for airliners that a Su-25 operating as “bait” could approach. It would also explain the appearance of Yankee satellites at the right moment in the right place. Buk has been in existence for a long time and NATO has surely tried to develop jammers against its active seekers. It is entirely conceivable that a Ukie Su-25 has been equipped with such a jammer. Even if the most modern Buk missiles may be resistant to jamming, re-directing a lock on to an airliner in the vicinity might present an easier jamming scenario than breaking a lock altogether. The missile used by the rebels might also have been of an older variant against which NATO jammers work.
Russia should look through its Radar records to see if any Ukie aircraft were displaying suspicious flight patterns during the says prior to the shoot-down.
The ‘black boxes’ have been turned over to Malaysian authorities by DPR officials with coverage by international media. There was chatter earlier that some lengthy negotiations took place beforehand.
Yes, the Russians are appallingly bad at propaganda or even just plain news. The drawing heading the RT story about the Ukrainian aircraft shows a slim body 4 engine aircraft as the 777, which is actually a wide body 2 engine plane, while the SU 25 looks more like a SU 24.
As you say, I am forever shaking my head at just how bad Russian PR really is. They are absolutely clueless.
They need to hire some American PR firm to do their PR work. You know, the kind that specializes in convincing consumers that some brand of soap identical to a hundred other brands is somehow superior and better value for the money.
Media treated militia handling of the crash scene unfairly:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2f2_1405969937
“Today Dutch forensic expert Peter Van Vliet at the scene of the crash praised the work of the locals.
’Given the hot weather, the size of the crash site and the military operations going on in the vicinity, the operation was “very difficult” and he was impressed with the efforts of local emergency workers and volunteers, who have spent three days sifting corpses and body parts from the crash site.’”
Dum Romae consulitur, Saguntum expugnatur! http://cassad-eng.livejournal.com/33679.html
Western media noise cannot displace media throughout the BRICS congregation of those many nations yearning for independence from the bestial Empire. Though these days and hours are most sobering, mirage queen Elizabeth NoName has lost.
With wonderful scholarship Tarpley draws pretty frightening parallels to exactly 100 years ago. The same Anglo satanists are still at it.
Oh come on! You praise American media that confuses Ukraine as a place in Timbuktu, Africa or South America, who are you trying to fool? American Media is just as bad or worse than Russian media. American Media has no idea where the Ukraine is!! Plueuze!
Oh come on! You praise American media that confuses Ukraine as a place in Timbuktu, Africa or South America, who are you trying to fool? American Media is just as bad or worse than Russian media. American Media has no idea where the Ukraine is!! Plueuze!
I speak to about 40 Ukrainians per week by phone and, before the plane crash, they were a majority pro Maidan, pro Kiev and pro ATO. Now nobody wants the ATO to continue, 20% feel the rebels made a mistake out of incompetence (but did not mean it to happen) and 80% say this was clearly a false flag op because of the timing (military disaster, Europe not wanting sanctions, Brics meeting). This false flag is backfiring where it counts: Ukraine itself, where I have heard morr than a dozen people tell me the obvious frame job made them stop hating Russia and made them scared of what Kiev might try next. I am not making this up. By the way, hatred of Russia or Putin is really only skin deep for most Ukrainians. They won’t hate you for questioning everything.
A nuclear power plant false flag would cause the population of Ukraine to instantly suspect and hate right sector and the CIA and turn to Russia for help. It would backfire on the perpetrators and they should be made aware of this dynamic.
Europe will not fall for this even though they are less jnformed about the military losses that caused this desperate move.
The wild card is how crazy the neocons are about this.
Dear The Saker,
I think the RF is now going to release what it knows.
Where is the US evidence? The silence says it all. If they are so knowledgable what about flight MH37? The US had nothing on this……
Glad RT has covered this nasty story and refuted with facts:
http://rt.com/news/174332-ukraine-plane-photo-perverted/
They take a photo and then twist the meaning. People collect belongings to preserve them and then MSM twists the meaning….
The Chinese have now come out too and backed Russia and asked for facts not heresay.
Also, the Malaysians have been given the black boxes.
http://rt.com/news/174448-malaysian-pm-mh17-statement/
Meanwhile, the facist, disgusting, lying Junta Govt. are bombing, using tanks, and killing civilians whilst the flight is supposed to be investigated. Silence from MSM about these atrocities…..yet again.
I am so sick of the politicising of this tragedy by the USG.
The poor Eastern Ukraine has been bombed for months with its infrastructure destroyed, people fleeing and Donetsk being attacked today, no ceasfire and somehow they are supposed to maintain security. It is Kiev that needs to allow access and stop its attacks – but we all know they wont….
Rgds,
Veritas
Hi Saker.
This article form ‘Russian Institute for Strategic Studies’ (RISS) seems very interesting. But would need a proper translation.
Ukrainian crisis: danger and threats
The report RISS . 09.07.14
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Friss.ru%2Fanalitika%2F3379-ukrainskij-krizis-opasnosti-i-ugrozy
OR http://riss.ru/analitika/3379-ukrainskij-krizis-opasnosti-i-ugrozy
‘Jet may not have been Ukie.’
Are you suggesting ANYBODY can fly freely all over Ukraine in the times of civil war?
Whoever that was, took part in the conspiracy in cahoots with those among junta, who put faked recordings – meant to blame militia – on the internet on July 16, a day before catastrophy. That itself prooves the junta is a guilty side, whoever else cooperated with it;
And what happened to that Spanish guy (air controller in Borislav) who first tweeted about jets following Boeing? As it shows, he was proven right; He could be a valuable witness in the international probe, so what SBU did with him? I hope he’s still alive.
The truth will out and the murderous junta will hang one day!
It would seem RT is currently suffering some sort of denial of service or other such attack.
Has been down from here (Asia Pacific) for a while now…
Any one in other locations having the same problem?
RT is coming in clearly in eastern Australia.
Anon 22:01:
So we have the Ministry of the Interior in charge. This ministry happens to be under the control of the two Neo-Nazi parties Svoboda and Right Sector is responsible for “internal” military operations directed against rebel forces in Lugansk and Donbass, in coordination with the Armed Forces.
Again, Arsen Avakov and Adriy Parubiy are both members of Timoshenko and Yatesniuk and Turchinov’s “Fatherland” Party, not Svoboda or Right Sector.
The “Fatherland” Party is the party that rehabilitated Bandera and Co. back in the late 2000’s under President Yuschenko and are the people primarily responsible for spreading bigoted Ukrainian Nationalism in Ukraine, so not to, worry, they should also reasonably be thought of as a Nazi party.
Galician/Volhynia Svoboda just provides votes for the government in parliament and cannon fodder for the Army and Nazi Guard, they have no positions of any power. You might notice that the protests of Mothers have been coming from places like Lviv and Rivne, not from central Ukraine, say from Sumy or Poltava or Kiev.
Fwd from Canuckistan:
Confirming that RT is currently down and inaccessible here in the Nation formerly known as Canada…
Why are all of you relying on the interpreter. The writing is in Russian, the picture is from the military. the aircraft that the Russian military put forth is a SU-24, not the SU-25.
Consider that the SU-24 is more than capable to be rigged to carry a SA-11 and has electronic counter measures (the disappearance to civilian radars). Please note the US first made note of the SA-11 launch and could not back the launch area. Then there is the observed ‘double tap’ of the stricken aircraft on the way down by the farmer on his tractor and others. There are leaks from inside the US intel community as if it was a rouge operation and add the SA-11 parts transiting Finland to an Eastern Ukraine location. Put those together. That’s a good start for the UN investigation.
The Russians perhaps do not wish to appear interested in public opinion, making an effort to do PR and defend an absurd claim. They assume it is absurd to anyone who cares to look at it and they do stand out by doing so. They showed their “Western partners” that they have the cards.
Clear, concise conclusions. Fine work! This is the end of the beginning… It will be over when Obama-Kerry either release the satellite images or fail to do so. I believe Robert Parry and his source. Bad day at Black Rock.
Repost with comment on OpEdNews.Com. The Russian Military Finally Speaks! – The Saker with Comment
It may seem discordant but the most marked characteristic of the “team” in the “Kremlin” is their sense of the ridiculous, including its use in diffusing/highlighting tension.
This is closely followed by their understanding of many cultures, including languages.
Your comments on translation services may be a function of your lower level experience in Soviet times.
Russia has always had excellent simultaneous translators in many languages.
However sometimes they use “bad translators” for a reason or reasons.
To discuss an issue with limited Anglo-Saxon “victims” they put forward a “bad translator of English”.
In meetings did they supply bad translators of Dutch or Malay?
@ Michael Collins.
I agree that the show and tell yesterday was very significant. The US and to a lesser degree Ukraine were being told that this was their last chance to come clean.
My thinking is that Russia has no need to hide its capabilities in the electronic intel arena because these are open secrets anyway and a full revelation of what Russia knows would not be a complete revelation of capabilities.
The next few days are very significant because, in part, of the advantage taken by the Ukraine government and their advisors in the Donbas region. My take is that with new advisors and other support the Ukraine army can take the upper hand in a decisive manner forcing a choice upon Russia.
As I have said before there are no coincidences.
NATO boots are on the ground and in surrounding countries, the Ukrainians are pushing an offensive with new tactics. Liquidation of civilians is absolutely purposeful. Insults to Russian territorial integrity are ongoing and Russians are being harmed both in Russia and Ukraine.
If the US president does not take the opportunity given to him by Mr Putin then the Russian government is going to understand the clear signal from the US as to their purpose and intent and that will clear the way for Russia to best protect its interests.
The other day I wrote about a 7 day time frame, however that may be lengthened if the Russian Federation chooses to divest itself of US dollar liquid assets rather than have them expropriated by the US.
IMHO if we see a movement, overt or otherwise in terms of Russian holdings of dollar based financial instruments then we can be assured as to the next step. The risk with that though is to the populace of the Donbas region and that then becomes a judgement call for the government in Moscow.
@ Michael Collins.
I agree that the show and tell yesterday was very significant. The US and to a lesser degree Ukraine were being told that this was their last chance to come clean.
My thinking is that Russia has no need to hide its capabilities in the electronic intel arena because these are open secrets anyway and a full revelation of what Russia knows would not be a complete revelation of capabilities.
The next few days are very significant because, in part, of the advantage taken by the Ukraine government and their advisors in the Donbas region. My take is that with new advisors and other support the Ukraine army can take the upper hand in a decisive manner forcing a choice upon Russia.
As I have said before there are no coincidences.
NATO boots are on the ground and in surrounding countries, the Ukrainians are pushing an offensive with new tactics. Liquidation of civilians is absolutely purposeful. Insults to Russian territorial integrity are ongoing and Russians are being harmed both in Russia and Ukraine.
If the US president does not take the opportunity given to him by Mr Putin then the Russian government is going to understand the clear signal from the US as to their purpose and intent and that will clear the way for Russia to best protect its interests.
The other day I wrote about a 7 day time frame, however that may be lengthened if the Russian Federation chooses to divest itself of US dollar liquid assets rather than have them expropriated by the US.
IMHO if we see a movement, overt or otherwise in terms of Russian holdings of dollar based financial instruments then we can be assured as to the next step. The risk with that though is to the populace of the Donbas region and that then becomes a judgement call for the government in Moscow.
dusty:
The other day I wrote about a 7 day time frame, however that may be lengthened if the Russian Federation chooses to divest itself of US dollar liquid assets rather than have them expropriated by the US.
Severstal announced it is selling its US Steel Mills.
In case you didn’t see this one, Saker:
http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2014/07/21/downed-airliner-fake-audio-tape-shows-us-backed-hit-frame-russia.html
@Dusty
Thanks for that analysis. The next 7 days are critical. Ukraine’s military (with their helpers) still have to execute. If they screw up again, then it’s going to get really interesting.
Just from watching the public moves, I suspect that the Russians have another shoe to drop and that it’s a big one. Just seems that way.
Also, you can be sure that there are people sweating it out in the WH about the Parry article, which is getting huge traction here on the net. They also have to worry about this phenomenon
http://www.opednews.com/articles/Ellsberg-and-Snowden-Rock-by-Michael-Collins-Daniel-Ellsberg_Federal-Agency-NSA_Hope-X_Internet-Cybercrimes-140719-770.html
not a good signal:
black boxes go to london
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-22/mh-17-black-boxes-will-be-analyzed-uk-whose-prime-minister-compares-russian-aggressi
Michael, yes, the next few days are critical but we need to understand that the US may choose to simply not care what Moscow has to say about the shooting down. That’s what yesterday’s theatre was about.
My take was that Mr Putin had just seen the reports and was fuming mad. Did you notice he was in an ordinary office – there was an ordinary paper shredder behind him. He was getting something off his chest. No script, no handlers, no makeup.
Overall I really don’t want to see a war and I am old enough and rich enough that the long term goings on in the world will not affect me. Intellectually I understand, as I am sure Mr Putin does that war is now inevitable, it is just a choice of when. He also understands that he can’t continue to be like Rocky Balboa, taking the hits but winning in the end. He will lose personal support well before the final reel.
In that regard, what I have seen about the meeting today suggests more taking of punches, more bruises and cut eyes. I confess, having seen the anger yesterday, having had the hair on the back of my neck raised in a manner that has not happened in many years, I was expecting more.
The article from Colonel Cassad today made clear some points that I had not known, I knew more about the Ukrainian movers and shakers. Now I understand that this action now is absolutely not what was wanted. I can understand that there are options we have not considered.
We armchair analysts need to stop looking at the rebels as our favourite football team but understand that they are one team in a league of teams and that if they lose the match there will still be more games to play next weekend.
Think on this, the leadership in Donbas is almost exclusively Russian, the locals either can’t get a look in, or don’t want to be there. Either way that’s a problem when considering this ‘team’ and this fixture. The background negotiations were oligarch to oligarch and about power. Months ago I was saying to people ‘look to the power’ and I /we have forgotten to do so.
In the bigger picture the current rebellion means nothing, no matter the pain, death, blood and anguish. The people who deal in power are not concerned with these things. (I do believe though that Mr Putin does care, he is not an oligarch, he is by trade and profession a bureaucrat. He used to play soccer with the lads up in Turku. My respect for the guy comes because I think he stands for a set of personal, core values but like some of the previous leaders in Ukraine he knows that to swim with sharks one has to have strong teeth, never stop moving forward and be willing to go for blood.
If already posted, apologies, but this is good on Russian Military Intelligence take on the (likely) Ukrainian Government ordered attack on the civilian airliner. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-21/russia-says-has-photos-ukraine-deploying-buk-missiles-east-rader-proof-warplanes-mh1
Once again Pepe, brilliant. The simple and central point.
Kiev lied, and by proxy so did Washington.
My father was a judge in the US. Attorney General of the State of Georgia once.
If a witness in a case lies, it is over.
Period.
Kiev credibility = zero
Brilliant reporting and summary Pepe.
One positive aspect of Russia’s ‘poor’ media ‘performance’ is that it doesn’t look like anything the empire would produce. It’s very ‘amateurish look’ lending credibility to the content of the report. ‘Slick’ reporting can look and feel like a used car salesman, always a dubious distinction.
Dear Saker,
I am not sure if you are aware of the following happenings (it probably never crossed the atlantic):
In the beginning of June, on two days the transponder signals from civilian aircrafts were blocked for several hours in central Europe.
http://kurier.at/chronik/oesterreich/nato-uebung-flugsicherung-in-halb-europa-lahmgelegt/69.226.057
http://diepresse.com/home/panorama/oesterreich/3820276/Nato-stort-Flugverkehr-uber-Osterreich
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4b7_1406202468
This forced air traffic control to track the flights “by hand”, as they had no information on flight number, height, etc.
It was speculated that this either had to do with some NATO manoeveurs (Italy or Hungary), or that it was used to cover major relocation of military aircrafts. For sure, there was no usable information released from the authorities. Anyway, it is clear that the NATO can interfer with civilian transponder signals.
Now let me draw out the following scenario:
A SU-25 slowly approaching the rebel’s area is tracked on radar. Once it gets close the frontline and comes into reach of the rebels air defense, it quickly rises to the flight altitude of the Boeing. At the same time the transponder signal of the Boeing is disturbed by some jamming transmitter (on an AWACS, or from a satellite), so it cannot be identified by the BUK as a civilian target.
When the BUK gets “primed” (maybe just seconds befor the launch), it cannot discriminate the two targets. Once the missile is launched, the (much smaller) fighter aircraft turns away, leaving only the Boenig as a tracking object (and target) for the missile.
This would explain why both sides are motivated to hide information:
The russians would be forced to admit that the Boening was in fact shot down by the rebels, and that they used a russian army’s BUK to do so.
At the same time, the americans would be the main responsibles, because the Ukies would never be able to construct such a scenario by themselves.
Although it sounds far-fetched, for me it is the most sound scenario.
And please don’t think this would be “unlikely” or “too perverted” for a western-led military operation. This is exactly the stuff they are paying the guys in the think-tanks for.
(Just to refresh your memory: In 1983, the US provoked the shot-down of a south-korean 747 (KAL 007) by the russians, when europeans started rethinking the deployment of US nuclear missiles in Europe; for the media it was clear that this was just slaughtering of innocents by the pure-evil USSR, and the peace movement had a serious backlash from it.)
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