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CrossTalk: NATO vs Russia

11398 Views June 16, 2015 Watch List The Saker

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  • CrossTalk

41 Comments

  1. T1 on June 16, 2015  ·  at 1:29 am EST/EDT

    I dont see a painless outcome for this internationalist/corporate morass that is the west. It’s no longer useful to see this as a grouping of nations. It now consists of a cluster of tax-penal colonies in a new feudal construct that exists to serve ethereal corporate/ banking blood lust. At some recent point, geographical boundaries have become irrelevant: money moves at wire speed, if you have the bucks the planet is yours within hours.
    The west is going to suffer consequences if will-full ignorance, this wont begin to occur until supply chains are disrupted and people’s stomach’s compel a re-evaluation of values and allegiance. As it stands today the next US election is up for grabs to whomever can [ay for the most Diebold counted.

    As for that poor American sap promoting the NATO crap: (I paraphrase) One cant be informed if one’s career depends on being ignorant.

    • Ann on June 16, 2015  ·  at 4:14 am EST/EDT

      Good quote, T1

  2. SanctuaryOne on June 16, 2015  ·  at 1:30 am EST/EDT

    Some good discussion, but left out of all these talks is what must be obvious to all and that is that the US is deperate to maintain and extend its hegemony and the ponzi US$. What stands in the Hegemon’s way are Russia and China. Thus NATO, the US’s arm’s length muscle and its vassal boys are merely part of that strategy as is stirring it up everywhere on Russia’s borders. Ukraine is a proxy war to destabilise and weaken Russia to precipitate regime change and break the country up.
    Anytime the US talks about ‘democracy’ in another country it is simply code for the export of death and destruction to invoke regime change and US domination.

    Surely to goodness they all know that? It seems it is one of those unmentionables -like Israel’s nukes. Why?

    Let’s have some glaznost and the big picture, Peter Lavelle et al.

  3. Erebus on June 16, 2015  ·  at 2:11 am EST/EDT

    Meanwhile, enter the Dragon:

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/06/14/uk-eu-china-exclusive-idUKKBN0OU0HJ20150614

    “China will pledge a multi-billion dollar investment in Europe’s new infrastructure fund at a summit on June 29 in Brussels…It is expected to come with a request for return investment in China’s westward infrastructure drive – the “One Belt, One Road” initiative – ….”

    On the heels of the G7 and Putin’s meetings with Italy and Turkey, China drops a sovereignty-respecting alternative to the TTIP on the table. Europe is being put on its geo-political tipping point.
    What are the chances the EU stays whole if the Brussel Sprouts vacillate?

    Had the US understood its real interests as the shift that started 2 decades ago developed, it would have done all in its power to make Russia a strong, long term ally. As a counterweight to China, and to get a seat at the Eurasian table. Instead, hubris induced myopia led to a massive strategic blunder, leaving it to fight a series of rearguard actions on the road to decline and final fall.

    • Peter on June 16, 2015  ·  at 4:37 am EST/EDT

      A very cunning scheme. The Eurocrats will follow the money like children following the Pied Piper.
      No doubt the US will have to test fire another Trident missile over this one.

    • Anonymous on June 16, 2015  ·  at 4:58 am EST/EDT

      America doesn’t have allies.

      Never did. Never will.

      America only has satraps and stooges and whores.

      After the Cold War, Russia desperately sought to be accepted as part of the so-called West (i.e., the White predator club)–but as an equal predator.

      Russia watned to eat at the table with the rest of the Western wolves–not realizing that they considered Russia to be part of the menu! LOL.

      Let the Anglo American Empire reap what it has sown around the planet.

      All those who wring their hands at its demise deserve to follow America to its much deserved end.

      Yes, America’s Day of Judgment draws nigh.

      And there will be no escaping its reckoning time.

    • Red Ryder on June 16, 2015  ·  at 5:22 am EST/EDT

      China is going to send airborne special forces to Belarus for joint training.
      http://www.ecns.cn/military/2015/06-15/169307.shtml

      China is making its complete portfolio present in Europe. Money, diplomacy, and military.

      Belarus is important economic and strategic positioning for Eurasia.

      This will be a signal that Black Sea China naval forces and land and air PLA are to be familiar to the neighborhood. Helping Russia face NATO, and surrounding Ukraine.

      The notion that Russia will stand alone in the near abroad has ended.
      China and Russia will be together nearly everywhere their borders are threatened.

  4. Daniel Rich on June 16, 2015  ·  at 2:38 am EST/EDT

    How does one spell clusterf***?

    • Spelling Champ on June 16, 2015  ·  at 5:14 am EST/EDT

      Barack Obama

      • Daniel Rich on June 16, 2015  ·  at 6:51 am EST/EDT

        @ Spelling Champ,

        Hillary Hilarious

        • Win on June 16, 2015  ·  at 1:06 pm EST/EDT

          That’s 10 up votes for you both.

    • T1 on June 17, 2015  ·  at 3:55 am EST/EDT

      Sorry DR, I disagree. I think events are going as planned. It doesnt take much brainpower to be destructive and it doesn’t matter much what gets destroyed first. Sure, Crimea was unforeseen, shooting down an airliner – no big deal; but there’s still much evil left to do.
      If you put your mind into the space of the puppet masters – things become more clear.
      Keep in mind that the events in Ukraine are a warm up for what’s coming as ‘the west’ puts in motion the plan to destroy Russia.

  5. Peter on June 16, 2015  ·  at 3:09 am EST/EDT

    Transcript of Samantha Power’s June 11 speech in Kiev. Orwellian doublespeak at its finest.
    http://usun.state.gov/briefing/statements/243583.htm

    • SanctuaryOne on June 16, 2015  ·  at 4:11 am EST/EDT

      Delivered by a pathological liar. I was unable to complete reading this filth but I am going to print it out and direct my cat to piss on it -outside. It deserves no less.

    • Jack on June 16, 2015  ·  at 1:41 pm EST/EDT

      She could not resist the temptation to put a deliberate bit of snark into the very first paragraph — replacing the otherwise-ubiquitous term “polite green men” with her version — “little green men.”

      Childish.

    • Anonymous on June 17, 2015  ·  at 6:58 pm EST/EDT

      This time, the girls are going to start WW I I I – Samantha Power…

  6. Ben on June 16, 2015  ·  at 3:37 am EST/EDT

    This may be not about NATO vs Russia but geopolitically it may as well be.

    “Amid international tensions in the South China Sea, Beijing and Washington have taken a major step toward reconciliation, signing an agreement to boost cooperation between the armies of both nations.”

    http://sputniknews.com/asia/20150616/1023405110.html

    Any thoughts about this move?

    Would really appreciate Jeff Brown comment, thanks in advance.

    • Erebus on June 16, 2015  ·  at 4:40 am EST/EDT

      Well, I ain’t Jeff but the originating document focuses on “…military procedures to ensure mutual trust between the US and China. This includes a code of conduct on how to react to military encounters in air and at sea.” The exercises will “… ensure that the terms of the code of conduct work appropriately.”
      I read this as “Before somebody does something we’ll regret, lets agree on some rules of the road.”

      Meanwhile, despite its upcoming entry into the SCO, India signs a long term military cooperation pact with the US. Is India going to decide, or (as many expect) is it going to try to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds?
      http://www.china.org.cn/world/2015-06/04/content_35739828.htm

      • blue on June 16, 2015  ·  at 5:11 pm EST/EDT

        “jointly producing military equipment and technology, and they have also sealed two other projects, including one to develop protective gear for chemical and biological warfare.”

        Looks more like business and money to me.

      • alan on June 17, 2015  ·  at 4:29 am EST/EDT

        India’s Modi is being :
        a. whishy washy, or
        b. try to have best of both worlds, or
        c. a two-headed snake

        I donno which.

    • Ann on June 16, 2015  ·  at 5:59 am EST/EDT

      well, last week we had both China and the US threatening each other. Now its being worked out diplomatically instead of militarily.

      • Ben on June 16, 2015  ·  at 6:35 am EST/EDT

        It may be just a regulatory diplomacy or it may be that US military finally understood that they can’t push both China and Russia too much after China and Russia presented some sort of united front. Of course it is only my guess, that’s why I really would like to hear Jeff Brown’s opinion.

    • Peter on June 16, 2015  ·  at 6:39 am EST/EDT

      44 days facebook site here. Worth keeping an eye on for Jeff Brown articles. One there at the moment on the Snowden/encryption cracking
      https://www.facebook.com/44DaysPublishing

    • alan on June 17, 2015  ·  at 4:31 am EST/EDT

      Obviously it’s good that the situation is kind of “de-escalating” rather than the other way, IMO. Both sides realize they don’t really want fireworks right now, nothing to gain on both sides!

  7. Ben on June 16, 2015  ·  at 6:02 am EST/EDT

    Inner struggle – US SD vs CIA?

    “Final conflict between fuhrer Poroshenko and gestapo chief Nalivajchenko….”
    http://vk.com/strelkov_info?w=wall-57424472_63306

    Mean time the US SD protégée Poroshenko and the CIA protégée Nalivajchenko have had another go at each other.

    “The bad blood brewing between Ukraine’s prosecutors and security agents boiled over when a chain of June 8 explosions at a petrol complex near Kiev caused flames to shoot up. The fire was still burning on Monday afternoon.
    …
    SBU chief Valentyn Nalyvaychenko and some industry experts suspect that the complex — owned by a large Ukrainian petrol chain called BRSM-Nafta — is at the heart of an underground refining business that makes cheap but dangerous products on site.

    He claimed to have firm evidence of a former deputy general prosector illegally owning the Ukrainian company involved in the complex through offshore firms.

    Nalyvaychenko further accused the management of part of Russia’s energy giant Sibur of providing “criminal protection” for the entire operation and also profiting from the illegal deals.

    The charges prompted the general prosecutor’s office to denounce Nalyvaychenko’s comments as slander and order him to appear for questioning Monday — a decision backed by Poroshenko.

    The Ukrainian leader cancelled Nalyvaychenko’s June 16 visit to Washington and ordered his deputy to go in his place….”
    https://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/28466613/security-agency-wars-add-to-ukraines-spreading-woes/

    • alan on June 17, 2015  ·  at 4:26 am EST/EDT

      sounds like great news to me: when Poro cannot even trust his own security chief, the end is nigh!

  8. Michael D on June 16, 2015  ·  at 6:28 am EST/EDT

    The real battle going on is EU vs Nato, with a European desire to replace Nato with an EU defence force, and Nato + US determined to maximise the apparent threat from Russia as a defence of Nato.

  9. Daniel Rich on June 16, 2015  ·  at 8:44 am EST/EDT

    “Finally, a group of nomadic sheepherders from western Russia called the Yamnaya arrived about 4,500 years ago. The authors of the new studies also suggest that the Yamnaya language may have given rise to many of the languages spoken in Europe today.” @ http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/16/science/dna-deciphers-roots-of-modern-europeans.html

    And the Pentagon crowd goes [en masse] “Putin’s Propaganda! Putin’s Propaganda! Putin’s Propaganda! Putin’s Propaganda!…”

  10. Veritas on June 16, 2015  ·  at 10:15 am EST/EDT

    Dear The Saker,

    Chocie boy is in fantasy land again about “bribes”:

    http://tass.ru/en/world/800927

    After Russia questions back, the Finance Minister acknowledges the $3bn loan:

    http://sputniknews.com/business/20150616/1023416227.html

    All a storm in a tea cup!

    Rgds,

    Veritas

    • Veritas on June 16, 2015  ·  at 8:13 pm EST/EDT

      Putin’s response – what about “Western bribes”:

      http://tass.ru/en/economy/801175

      Also, he very bluntly states any country who hosts US missile defence system can expect missiles aimed at them:

      http://tass.ru/en/russia/801179

      I think Russia has made it very clear.

      Veritas

  11. Win on June 16, 2015  ·  at 1:41 pm EST/EDT

    Dear Michael (voice of reason for NATO – isn’t that an oxymoron?) a few things;

    1.The US did not win the cold war.
    2. What is the difference between evidence and emperical evidence? In your opinion they are two seperate things – your idea of evidence trumps emperical evidence ie photos of Russian arms in Ukraine. So your evidence – what type is that?
    3. Why was there a need for the US in Afghanistan?
    4.NATO building – NATO is an aggressive warmongering body. Have you not heard the rhetoric that spouts from the mouths of some of it’s leaders? Hint- it’s not about making friends with Russia. You obviously don’t get those reports in the Brookings Institue.
    5. NATO is completely benign in its intention to build up military might on Russian borders? Michael which planet are you from or what the hell are you smoking?
    6.The Ukraine is a huge threat to world stability. In the Ukraine Nuland etc have developed a deliberate ploy to provoke Russia into a war with the US. If WW3 starts there will not be much of the world left. I suppose it may
    get rid of IS I suppose.
    7. Obama is most dangerous because he is a puppet of the neo cons. Kerry goes to Sochi, next minute he’s sidelined and Obomber (who admits he is good at killing people) at the meeting of the debtors G7 stands up and spouts outright lies about the situation in Ukraine. He does as he’s told.
    Finally Michael do you really believe what you say, you look so earnest on the programme, or are you somewhat naive?

    • Anonymous on June 16, 2015  ·  at 1:52 pm EST/EDT

      The Russian Embassy in the UK is offering people the chance to join its diplomatic club online, which is interesting – they are finally doing more to get their worldview disseminated online:
      http://www.rusemb.org.uk/dc/

  12. Larchmonter445 on June 16, 2015  ·  at 2:33 pm EST/EDT

    Instead of looking at the “strength” of the enemy (NATO), it is time to look at the enemies’ weaknesses.

    First and foremost, the war in Ukraine depends on Petro Poroshenko. He has been the perfect servant, joyful to kill and maim innocents, to target mostly civilian housing, civic buildings and playgrounds and parks.
    Yet, he is thought to be an alcoholic who has appeared at public functions well-oiled with spirits.

    What incentives must he have to continue in this role as master of criminal warfare? He is a billionaire, a true oligarch, with revenues in the black from last year’s reports of earnings. Is greed the motive? What affront in the past by Russia would spur him on?

    We can imagine he has been on the payroll of the State Department for years. Some evidence points back to at least 2006 as the choice of neo-cons for stooge-in-chief and surely, they made certain that he “won” the Presidency.

    So, we can assume his ego has been puffed by his handlers. And imagine how they must have to work his confidence after all the battlefield defeats? Can you imagine after Congress and the White House did not give him deadly weapons they so willing heap on Islamist terrorists what his mental state must be? And his twisted emotions when Poland and Lithuania talk big but don’t do more than send snipers and some special operators. His ego must be soft and twisted like cooked spaghetti.

    Poroshenko is the weak link in the war. He is going paranoid, ordering a hit list against the critics of the government. Now he’s taken down his Intel chief. These are not security measures. They are “insecurity” actions.

    The conduct of the war has primarily devolved under Minsk 2 to a determined breech of the protocols that targets the heroes of the militia. He would declare a week of holiday in Kiev if they should kill Givi or Motorola. He hands medals to nazis for their barbarity of torture and rape against the civilians of Donbass.

    But paranoid is ripe in Poroshenko’s psyche. He cannot trust a single Ukrainian for any top job. He brings in and nationalizes foreigners as if a nation of 40 million has zero talent or zero patriots.

    As we consider the strengths of NATO and the US, always recall the foundation in Kiev upon whom all their might is thrust. It is Poroshenko. A drunk, a weak rich man, a paranoid, a tool whose ego and manias cannot abide either Russians or Ukrainians. He is clearly schizophrenic-like.

    The last sane words he has spoken was the night of the Minsk 2 agreement when he declared: “All is lost.”

    Indeed. He saw the terminus of his psychotic dream in Minsk. He would not defeat Putin. He would not bring Ukraine into the EU. He would not get NATO to fight for him. And he would never regain Donbass or Crimea. That is why “all is lost”.

    His most recent cant that he will reclaim Crimea is indicative of a mental state of considerable delusion. His attempt a blockade at the border of Transnistria is tantamount to sitting on a tank of propane and striking matches on the lid. The only casualty of a blockade will be the junta. If Russia must act, Kiev will fall and Odessa, too, will be property of Russian Federation by rule of war. But he keeps striking the matches.

    Poroshenko was so consumed by his delirium that he could not confront the reality of Debaltcevo boiler. That mystified the realists in the room. Merkel and Hollande and Lukashenko were unable to get him to confront the reality of the military defeat that was days away. This sealed the trap he fell into.

    Poroshenko is a cripple. And upon his fate rests the entire Ukrainian project constructed by the war-mongers of Washington. Now take a look at the might of NATO and power of the US. It is all cantilevered on a crippled mind. Think of Yeltsin.

    Ironically, the Ukrainian public has a clear understanding of the situation as indicated by the latest poll of the public. They fear that when he falls, when the junta collapses, their nation will break apart. That day is closer than ever. And they are praying and cheering for it to happen. Quite ironic.

    • sejmon on June 16, 2015  ·  at 3:47 pm EST/EDT

      Thanks Larchmonter for best analysis of Por noschenko. I am sure Ukie military know about this psycho wreck and I assume they see trainwreck coming soon to station…

    • T1 on June 17, 2015  ·  at 3:30 am EST/EDT

      Poroshenko isn’t his own man and never was. He’s a front man for really big money much like Khordokovsky. They have many things in common, such as:

      Poroshenko to transfer his share in Roshen to Rothschild under trust agreement

      http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/poroshenko-to-transfer-his-share-in-roshen-to-rothschild-under-trust-agreement-390343.html

      sound familiar? He has every reason to be paranoid, he knows that his life isn’t worth shit to anyone. Maybe he’d be of more use as a martyr.

  13. PokeTheTruth on June 16, 2015  ·  at 5:02 pm EST/EDT

    Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov should set up a meeting with Secretary of State John Kerry on Ratmanov (a.k.a. Big Diomede) Island that separates Russia from Alaska
    (see: http://www.distancefromto.net/distance-from/Alaska/to/Russia and zoom in on the Bering sea ).

    There the two men can talk about the different types of “birds” seen on the island with the obvious implication that some of the winged creatures of the Russian variety could be Topol ICBM missiles pointed at the eastern seaboard of America. Perhaps Kerry would begin to understand what it feels like to have nuclear weapons camped on the doorstep of the continental U.S.

    The average citizen is not paying attention to what the psychopaths in Washington, DC are doing to ultimately push the United States into the abyss of World War III. Most Americans have substituted their analytical and reasoning skills for simple optical, tactile and auditory stimuli like one-celled animals. They need to “see” for themselves what the neocon controlled NATO lackeys are doing to threaten the Russian Federation. Perhaps a clever software developer can create an “app” for free download that shows these missiles a few miles off the coast of Alaska ready to launch with the caption, “Because of your government, this is what the Russian people have to face in Eastern Europe; how do you like it?”

    Wise men often say visual aids are a great motivator. We can only hope the American people wake up when they see what hell is being planned for them by their elected “leaders”.

  14. blue on June 16, 2015  ·  at 8:46 pm EST/EDT

    It’s disturbing that Michael O’Hanlon spends time on this issue while ignoring the much greater danger presented by the invasion of Yemen by the Martians and the arming of Kyrzbekistan (between India and Angola according to the CNN map) with Martian weapons and tanks. We should not wast time debating the evidence of this — there is plenty of evidence, and we can check social media to find some — but rather explore the reason why the Martians feel threatened by Kyrzbekistan. This establishing ‘factual’ stuff is a waste of time — just believe it. Would the Brookings Institute or the New York Times say something that wasn’t true?

  15. Anonymous on June 16, 2015  ·  at 10:00 pm EST/EDT

    Has to be something big coming when they’re not even bothering to hide or pretend or carry on about the Saudi faux Islam wahabbi sect & who/what has been behind it all along, happily tweeting about opening an embassy for their buddies right in Riyadh!

    TEHRAN (FNA)- A tweet of the Saudi journalist and writer, Dahham Al Enazi, has infuriated social network users as he called for attacking Iran and opening Israel’s embassy in Riyadh.

    “We welcome replacing Iranian embassy compound in Riyadh with an Israeli embassy, then launch a shared war on Iran and destroy its nuclear power plants; then when it (Israel) withdraws to the 1967 borders, we will recognize it and make it a member of the Arab League,” Al Enazi said on his tweeter account.
    http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13940326001030

  16. eimar on June 17, 2015  ·  at 12:02 am EST/EDT

    @ blue

    * This
    establishing ‘factual’ stuff is a waste of time
    — just believe it. Would the Brookings
    Institute or the New York Times say
    something that wasn’t true?*

    Of course not. The Russians are lying. The Venusians did not invade Yemen – it just looks that way.

    That’s the cunning of the Martians.

    And the Russians.

  17. Stavros H on June 18, 2015  ·  at 12:36 pm EST/EDT

    This is only indirectly related to the War of the West against Russia, but is definitely good news:

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/18/us-usa-oil-slowdown-insight-idUSKBN0OY0E820150618

  18. Stavros H on June 18, 2015  ·  at 1:18 pm EST/EDT

    More good news: https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/gazprom-says-keep-51-pct-114821448.html

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/06/02/basf-wintershall-russia-idUKL5N0YO1US20150602

    Note the last line from the Wintershall executive: “Those are not geopolitical, but geological facts”

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