I am very sorry to have to tell you all that it is too early to conclude that the Novorussian forces did not shoot down the Malaysian airliners. Though most Novorussian air defense systems are man-portable, the Resistance forces did get their hands on some 9K37 Buk missile systems which are quite capable of hitting a civilian airliner at normal cruising speed and altitude.
I am not, repeat, NOT saying that the Novorussians did it. Furthermore, at least one Russian military expert, Igor Korochenko, has declared that the Ukrainian side had officially declared that the Ukrainian soldiers had managed to disable these systems before they fell into the Novorussian hands. But even that is hardly proof of anything. First, I have seen no such Ukrainian official statement. Second, the Ukrainians soldiers could have lied to cover their collective read ends. Third, the Novorusssians could have fixed these systems. So unless the Novorussians have some solid proof that their Buks were inoperable, they have to be included in a list of possible suspects.
There are already speculations about a false flag, about Ukie military aircraft seen flying next to the Malaysian aircraft, even about some parachutes seen near the place were the plane was shot down. I have even seen some speculations about Putin’s official aircraft looking like the Malaysian one and that this could have been an attempt to shoot it down. Clearly the rumor mill is blasting at full power.
Still, the Ukies have already immensely benefited from this incident: now that all the media is completely focused on what happened to this Malaysian airliner, nobody is informed of the catastrophic failure of Poroshenko “surprise” offensive. Right there we already have the first cui bono going to the junta. Second, since no matter what happened the western regimes and media will blame the Russians for this incident, the Ukies will use it in their propaganda campaign (they apparently have already asked NATO for “help” whatever that means). So that is a second cui bono for the junta. As for the Novorussians and Russia, this incident is really the last thing they need.
For whatever it’s worth, and without wanting to give anybody false hopes, I personally think that it is extremely unlikely that the Russians did it because they have a fully integrated, multi layered, advance air defense systems staffed only by specialists. In contrast, the Ukies have an old, decrepit, non-integrated air defense “system” staffed by underpaid, demoralized and poorly trained conscripts. And since the Kremlin likes to maintain the illusion that it does not control the Novorussians, even if there is proof that the latter are responsible for this catastrophe, this will not directly implicate Russia (which would have been the worst option). I hope that the Russians will be able to prove that the Novorussians did not do it by, for example, finding key parts of the missile(s) which hit MH17 or by showing all the Resistance missiles “unshot”, right there in the hangars were they were found.
Another thing which has not been done is a careful calculation of the exact flight envelope of the missiles in Novorussian hands. In the real world, you cannot just say that a missile can shoot a target going at speed X and altitude Y. You need to calculate an exact flight envelope and compare it against the exact flight characteristics of the target supposedly hit. In other words, until somebody makes such an analysis, there is no proof that the Novorussian Buks could have shot down this aircraft.
Then, let’s see what the black boxes show. Apparently, those were found by the good guys and sent to Moscow. Also, the Russian Air Defenses have the exact flight parameters of the Malaysian aircraft and of any missile(s) which could have hit him. If the Ukies did it, chances are pretty good that the Russians will be able to prove it. Alas, if the Novorussians did it, the Russians will probably also provide the evidence as covering up for it would be foolish.
For the time being, let’s not run after each rumor and let’s just wait for 48 hours or so, when at least we will have some facts to look at. And let’s pray that this was not a mistake by the Novorussians.
The Saker
according to Carlos, 2 Ukie fighters (cazas voleros) were on the airliner’s tail up to 3 minutes before it went down. his civil radar cannot detect missles but he seems sure missle(s) were fired (from the fighters)./..lots of displeasure amongst miltary with Porky..they prefer Timoshenko…and a coup is underway. Nardami
https://twitter.com/spainbuca
Saker, you read Spanish. Go carefully through the latest tweets by https://twitter.com/spainbuca
He is for real, am sure of that. He is at Borispol and in contact with the military there. Read his latest tweets.
He was interviewed by RT back in May after some threats:
http://actualidad.rt.com/actualidad/view/127516-amenazar-controlador-espanol-ucrania-crisis
Ukrainian official on Facebook said Russian separatist forces shot down the airliners with the missile system you mention provided by Russia.
http://youtu.be/4EzDJpnYY8c
Rightfully the international community/media will be blaming Putins policies in Ukrainian for what happened stoking a separatist/civil conflict in Ukraine that made this happen in the first place that I opposed in the beginning from a basic Russian national interest perspective that you fully supported simply because you see it as being against the “Anglo-Zionist empire” that Russia is becoming the regional Pakistan.
The Ukies had apparently recently deployed anti-aircraft missiles near Donetsk. See: http://en.itar-tass.com/world/741173
Saker,
As you point out, there will be conflicting claims about who is behind the shoot-down, but can’t we stress that Kiev is ultimately responsible for the airspace, and question why they claimed it was okay for commercial flights through a war zone?
Isn’t that unambiguous?
Thanks, BTW, for all your reports on this!
Has putin been neutered now after anglosopnsored protest agasint his rightful convincing win int eh election?
Seems so.
26th October 2012- he thinks that giving board membership to his british enemy will bring transparency ?
The same bp of gulf of mexico fame which is a by word for loies. Deceit and conspiracy incl;udign agasint russia !
BP representatives on Rosneft board will provide extra transparency – Putin
The presence of BP representatives on the board of directors of Rosneft will provide extra transparency for the Russian oil company, President Vladimir Putin said on Thursday. “If there is a representative of a major shareholder there on the board of directors, that will provide additional transparency to the activities of our largest oil company,” Interfax quoted him as saying. He made the statement at a meeting with members of the Valday international discussion club.
6th November 2012—
this lavrov in foreign ministry is an useless man who should be kicked out by Putin and Sergei Ivanov -former defense misnter in 2006- be made foreign minister or prime minister by kicking out traitor medvedev too.
=======================================================================
The main NWO crime families in America are british controlled
Duponts(behind coups in 30s and 60s, gmo seeds poisoning food supply)
Fords(funded Hitler, built weapons plants in nazi germany, ussr, funds La Raza, gangs)
Mellons(mellon bank getting govt bailouts over small banks, alcoa aluminum dumps toxics in water)
Rockefellers(supplies govt paid for oil to nazis & usa same time, eugenics, govt puppetmasters)
Vanderbilts(Anderson Cooper CNN is a Vanderbilt, pushes NWO agenda, diverts from real issues)
Hunts(price fix oil supplies, corner silver market)
Whitneys(banker fiat money printers)
They are mostly wasp(white anglo saxon protestant, however most wasps are decent people) inherited the wealth, are for state subsidized monopoly capital banks, price fixing oil companies.
Their goal is to wreck the economy, spread chaos so the can offer the fake solution being their NWO caste system of masters/dumbed down slaves, control grid. They pay for massive propaganda that is its to save the earth, sustainable and the Jews are responsible, not them(they funded Hitler, Stalin, Lenin Mao and most 20th centuyr dictators as front men for their crimes.
They rely on divide and conquer tactics through the media and internet trolls to pit us against each other based on religion, gender, race, geography, country so they can steal more of our wealth through their hidden derivatives scam, real estate price fixing and fed reserve fiat money printing.
THEY ARE THE FCS….FASCIST CRIME SYNDICATE.
The fact that this Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Wikipedia entry is up and running while that plane is still smoldering on the ground and the fascists need anything to cover up their losses, tell my gut something stinks here, worse than a dead rat.
Cui bono?
@jack
so it is russia to blame for the crimes in ukriane and not angloamericans? and which international community are you talking about? the empire of 5 evil eyes of spies?
real pathetic argument by pro anglo troll.
6:14 EST – “The Ruskies are TAMPERING with the crash scene. Any findings that come from Russia are illegitimate.” – Imperial Anglo-Zionist Media (viz. CNN)
Apparently the Ukies shot down an airliner about a decade ago, during a training exercise by mistake. It was a Siberian Airways going to Tel Aviv. They paid out and mea culpa’d.
Given the utter lack of a coordinated Air Defense, it’s much more likely some poorly trained conscript launched on their own initiative. I don’t believe the DPR has claimed to have hit anything over 6000 meters altitude..
Daniel Rich said…17 July, 2014 22:06
The fact that this Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Wikipedia entry is up and running while that plane is still smoldering on the ground and the fascists need anything to cover up their losses, tell my gut something stinks here, worse than a dead rat.
Cui bono?”
The media had their talking points already prepared ahead of time, even down to misrepresenting Novorussian claims of a banderivtsy transport shootdown as them “bragging” they shot down the airliner. It’s beyond obvious this was a planned falseflag, just like KAL707 was.
And about that KAL707 downing, it is notable that a previous KAL airliner made a similar gross divergence from course over Russian territory and was brought down. First the disappearance of the Malaysian airliner in march, now this one goes astray. It seems Malaysian air lines are the choice for ZPC/NWO airliner falseflags now.
вот так
Regardless of the cause this incident will be used to demonize Russia and splinter the BRICS.
It has already started in the western propaganda machine.
‘Russia’ and ‘missile’ are being used repeatedly in western press.
US ‘intelligence officials’ and ‘intelligence sources’ are ‘confirming’ the incident was ’caused by a missile’.
The timing is no coincidence – just 2 days after the BRICS development bank announcement.
A desperate nation will resort to desperate means – any means – to survive. The US is desperate and the incident will be spun and spun and spun to turn public opinion against Russia, particularly that in developing nations precisely like Malaysia.
WMDs anyone?
Russia needs to get on the front foot immediately and make the cause know from its air surveillance data.
The US was curiously ready with the material the instance the crash occurred – again…
Saker, care to comment on the alleged intercepted transcript?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnuHxAR01Jo&feature=youtu.be
@Saker: “(…) And let’s pray that this was not a mistake by the Novorussians.”
And lets pray for the 295 victims in the plane for god’s sake!
http://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/
Go carefully through the latest tweets by https://twitter.com/spainbuca
I hope this man is in a very safe place right now. If he’s for real, a hell of a lot hinges on his testimony.
3238Spainbuca (carlos) isn´t a good source of information. Perhaps he says all we want listen.
But he is in spain. Don´t forget this. His sources are webs, webs and no more. he nevers has wrotten a twitt in russian or ukranian.
Here’s what I see…
1. The flight track seems like the plane may have been diverted.
2. The radar tracker thing must have been turned off… or something was done to keep the plane from being tracked on flightradar which is something the rebels are obviously looking at.
Putting 1&2 together, it seems like the rebels may have just shot down an unidentified flying airplane not thinking that it could be a passenger airline.
But…
3. It was suspicious how quickly the aid to the interior minister had all this information and knew exactly what happened.
4. The SIGINT supposedly from the SBU detailing the rebels response to finding the wreckage seems extremely fake to me.
I don’t know what happened… and I’m getting completely tired of this conflict because I see BS everywhere…
@Anonymous: Saker, care to comment on the alleged intercepted transcript?
Frankly, I wish I did not have to, but here is what I can say. I have no idea whether this is truly a transcript, or a US-provided doctored recording. I sure hope it’s not real if only because if it is, it shows some major lack of operational security on the Novorussian/Russian side. I will say this though: the recording claims that “Cossacks from a checkpoint shot down the plane” now that sounds really wrong and makes me thing that this is a doctored tape based on a conversation of another shooting down, possibly of an An-26. I just don’t see a Buk at a checkpoint manned by Cossacks shooting 10km in the sky to shoot down a plane flying so far away from it. Just doesn’t sound right to me.
How about you – any thoughts?
Cheers,
The Sakers
Anonymous said…17 July, 2014 22:31
“Saker, care to comment on the alleged intercepted transcript?”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnuHxAR01Jo&feature=youtu.be
Not only did the ZPC have their quislings and media prepared for the air liner shoot downing, they had their phony “evidence” ready to plant on the internet using their websayanim network and “hooked dupes”.
The “evidence” in that youtube video comes from the banderivtsy SBU:
Щодо збитого літака (оновлено)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5E8kDo2n6g
No doubt every ZPC youtube front is busy spreading this “proof” around.
вот так
Is it (theoretically?) possible that some treasonous element in the Russian military could have done this? Or are there too many safeguards?
One thing that does need to be contended with is the reports that a AN-26 was shot down…
http://itar-tass.com/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/1325017
The media had their talking points already prepared ahead of time, even down to misrepresenting Novorussian claims of a banderivtsy transport shootdown as them “bragging” they shot down the airliner. It’s beyond obvious this was a planned falseflag, just like KAL707 was.
I don’t have a TV anymore, so I can’t speak to that, but on twitter it was like this huge wall of lies that came crashing down on everyone’s timelines: a thousand rage-filled voices all mouthing the same poisonous lies. Trying to push against it was impossible – it was like trying to yell into a howling hurricane.
It was horrifying, I don’t have any other word for it, really. (I’m sure Saker’s inbox is pretty much like that every day ;-)
…I just can’t believe I was so caught in that matrix just a few years ago.
The Outlaw US Empire has zero credibility, so anything coming from its Propaganda System is useless. Clearly, the cui bono answer is not Novo or Russia but the forces provoking them. Was the act of tactical or strategic significance? I would say neither: What could possibly change as a result?
It appears the international air safety authorities fucked-up big time by saying the airspace over a war zone was safe for civilian air transit. I imagine Outlaw US Empire CIA knows what Russia knows regarding the responsible party. And the immediacy of the Propaganda System’s narrative and website entries prove the readiness of at least a contingency plan.
If it’s a psy-op, who’s it aimed at?
The Big Picture: The Outlaw US Empire is fighting very hard to maintain its unipolar status, which is crumbling under the constant assault by BRICS and other blocs–G20, Non-aligned Movement, etc. Particularly crucial is the dollar’s status–bankruptcy will result if/when it’s toppled from its lofty, undeserved status. In other words, the Third World War has already begun, and has been ongoing for at least several years, but has now escalated. If you read Putin’s address to the BRICS conference, it should become clear why the Outlaw Empire is desperate as the only tools it has remaining are weapons of war.
The assault by Putin and the BRICS will not cease; indeed, it will escalate. The Outlaw Empire has two choices: It can continue to contest the assault and lose with a very hard fall being the result. Or it can rollback its Empire and use diplomacy to try and integrate its global financial apparat with the newly emerging paradigm and thus engineer a soft fall. So far, the first choice is being followed.
Are the Imperial Elite willing to give up their position by further escalation of the war, for that’s what’s included in a hard fall? What will it take for them to realize they cannot win? Or is their hubris so out-of-control that they cannot even conceive of losing?
For the world to become a better place, the Outlaw Empire must be destroyed and be rendered incapable of doing the same harm again. This means 100% regime and institutions change, new constitution, and the wholesale devolution of its corporate conglomerates. The USA public has two choices here: Do it yourselves; Have it done for you. Unfortunately, I think the latter will be the only way as the conditions don’t exist for the rise of a Novomerica.
This is another attempt to play a parallel game off the battlefield where the Ukies are losing badly.
The Militia has to keep fighting, destroying the Ukies.
This is a distraction.
Putin will have to deal with the fallout.
He just landed, so it was perfectly planned.
For all the factors to come together by serendipity to match Putin’s return, the prior grounding of the Ukie AF, a plane from Malaysia off course by 200 miles, and missiles reaching 30,000 feet it seems to be too much.
For the Ukies to have shot it down, what did they think it was up there? A militia plane?
This is Odessa II, ruthless wasting of human life.
The militia could see it up there coming there way only on radar. Where’s that radar? The tracking radar range on the BUK is 20-50 miles. The plane was flying at 500 mph. The militia had about five minutes to scan all the skies and all the altitudes and lock on. And why? What did they think was up there that high? A cargo plane would have to come down much lower. Why shoot up there?
I suspect that this is less and less likely to be the militia the more you look at the technical limitations of the situation, even if they have an operational BUK.
What the Hegemon gets is a ceasefire, an international crime branding the militia terrorists forever, more shit thrown on Russian and more shit thrown on Putin forever.
That’s what’s at stake in the black boxes.
The militia bragged of a shoot down an hour an half earlier. They better come up with the wreckage of a cargo plane.
I warned earlier that Strelkov is on social media too much. Twitter is no place to give SitReps.
“Сам себе режисер (хреновый) или кадровый голод в СБУ” (“Be your own producer (horseradish) or a personnel shortage in the SBU”)
http://eugene-df.livejournal.com/791000.html (trans) http://translate.yandex.net/tr-url/ru-en.ru/eugene-df.livejournal.com/791000.html
“…However, let’s analyze in details:
So, in the course of interception, clearly indicate where was the start: a roadblock on Chernukhino.
Attention to the map!
http://tinyurl.com/pgdpfhr
As you can see, the distance from the point of start, to the point of falling – 37 kilometers. While the train was 10 – 11 kilometers. For Russian “Buk-M2” is it really achievable distance (but with one VERY important caveat about it below). That’s the only armed with modern Ukraine, digital and high-tech ADMS is not and cannot be. And is in service with at best “Buk M1”. The complex is good, and even on the distance seems to fit… If not for one thing, which I mentioned. The fact that most of the complexes of small-and medium-range extremely bad working “vedogon”.
So, the provisions set. Look what we have:
Start made from Chernukhino. Maximum distance of start – 16 kilometers. The aircraft is between Snow and Thorez. It is 37 kilometres, that as much as 20 kilometers beyond the maximum possible points of failure. You know, even a plane off the engines will not be able to plan. But the trouble is that the plane-it is not whole. Judging by the picture “spilling” of debris and body parts – it “broke” literally from the first hit.
However – it has to do with the next part of the analysis. Let’s accept for the fact of the destruction of the aircraft in the air at high altitude (that we, in General, observed. Remind: “shards scattered in a radius of 15 kilometres.” The point is that it means exactly one: the plane (or rather its main core) fell almost at the point of being hit by a rocket. I mean, as soon as the plane turned into a heap of rubble different mass – started the “separation” of these debris due to the air resistance and the difference in their inertia. The most dense piece – flew more kilometres 3 – 6, falling more and more hollow.
In other words, the rocket has flown the aircraft as close as 25 kilometers from Chernukhino. It is ABSOLUTELY impossible for complex Beech.
By the way, can’t help but notice that the shooting at the maximum distance for “Buka” feasible only if supported with the outer stations of the radiolocation and guidance. I.e. rockets fly far, only a mobile radar does not hold…”
Basics of that bit are that the Buk system in the hands of Novorossia did not have the ability to reach the airliner where it was shot down, from where the Buk system was located.
After that the translation is not very clear and I’m not sure what he is saying. It seems he might think there was a lack of coordination among the bander-log forces and that one of their groups shot down the airliner too soon while it was in the wrong location for their “cunning plan”?
вот так
CIA has issued a fake tape, necessarily prepared in advance, of an alleged telephone conversation between what purports to be resistance commander Bezler and a colonel in the GRU:
http://youtu.be/VnuHxAR01Jo
This absurd exchange invites us to believe that an unsupervised group of alleged Kazaks, based at “the Chernukino checkpoint,” had possession of the only air defence system, the 9K37Buk, in the possession of the anti-fascist resistance – which boasts, at most, a handful of said system – that could conceivably have reached the Malaysian airliner at 33,000 feet.
Believe that, and I have a bridge you might be interested in.
Epic CIA fail.
An interesting comment by a Ukie propagandist, Yuri Butusov, a Ukrainian journalist and chief editor of the portal Censor.net.
“The launch of rocket the airliner Boeing 777 airlines Malaysia was committed to the Russian air defense of the border region or from zero at the border with Ukraine. It is absolutely the Russian anti-aircraft missile complex, it is probably the s-300 or Beech – liner was at the height of over 10,000 meters. MANPADS there will not reach. Ukraine has in the region of Donetsk any air defenses long range. Do not have such means and terrorists” … “Yesterday [16 July] by the air defense forces of Russia was shot down the su-25 attack aircraft of the air force of Ukraine. Today [17 July], our military-transport aviation forces of the Il-76 aircraft supplied blocked grouping of our troops in the border area with Russia. Obviously, the air defense forces of the Russian Federation tried to destroy our plane, but an error occurred operator-gunner, and was amazed civil aircraft. Ukraine will present evidence of the destruction of Boeng the Russian military”
So he is claiming that the militants were aiming at an Il-76 being used to supply Ukie troops and shot down the Boeing by mistake.
Fishier and fishier.
My thoughts…
Who has the most to gain?
Absolutely Kiev (and their US backers) and they are getting as much millage as they can and had their people on it immediately.
Russia and the militia have absolutely nothing here but negatives.
Who has the most at stake/to lose?
Novorussia -should they be proved to be at fault [pulling the trigger] (even if set up) it will be a huge blow in the international sphere likely galvanizing a hard press by the international community against them. Only defense I see would be to immediately offer up those responsible.
AND
Kiev – should they be convincingly implicated it will be a disaster for them. They, at a minimum, clearly share at least some of the blame because they are responsible for safe passage of flights in the airspace they control – and if they don’t control it they have no business allowing flights there.
Russia? can’t believe they are even indirectly involved but if the militia is held responsible they will suffer some collateral damage.
Likely Washington and Moscow already have a pretty good idea what the sequence of events was even if they are not completely sure who did what on the ground. Kiev may or may not know.
Word that the black boxes went already to Moscow may not be true. I expect there will be a safe zone set up for investigation. Russia (I believe) is the logical choice to be in charge but may not push that because of the politics but I am sure they will play a role.
There have been rumors about planes being shot down for many weeks now – some were true, some not. Just because someone said “the militia shot down a plane” doesn’t make it so and may mean nothing more than “we saw a plane go down, must have been the militia”.
Best outcome, whatever happened, that the truth comes out quickly and definitively, hopefully from the Russians.
This was the report of a transport shot down today before the airliner was downed.
The article is still up on Politikus.ru.’
The time is important. It predated the airliner.
Yesterday, 18:49 • Publ.: Alexey 84 • Playback.: 17144 • Comm.: 128 • Events in the world
Remember the time differential. ‘Yesterday’ is today the 17th. An hour later they posted the airliner going down.
Источник: http://translate.yandex.net/tr-url/ru-en.en/politikus.ru/events/24613-transportnyy-an-26-sbit-na-vostoke-ukrainy-zayavili-ochevidcy.html
Politikus.ru
“Transport An-26 was shot down in Eastern Ukraine, said eyewitnesses • Events in the world RIA Novosti DONETSK, 17 Jul – RIA Novosti.
“Militiamen on Thursday over the city Torez of Donetsk region in Eastern Ukraine was hit by another transport aircraft of the Ukrainian air force, told RIA Novosti eyewitnesses of the incident.
“At about 16.00 local time over the city passed An-26. We’ve seen it crashed a rocket, there was an explosion, the plane went to the ground, leaving a black smoke. Fell from the sky any debris,” told one of the local residents. As confirmation of his words the interlocutors of the Agency provided a video recording. According to them, the plane crashed somewhere in the mine area “Progress”, away from residential areas. Torez situated near the town of Snow and Kurgan Saur-Grave, where militias have several anti-aircraft installations.
Yesterday in the area they had shot down two planes su-25. On the eve it became known that in the area of the mound Saur-Grave in the South of Donetsk region is trying to get out of the encirclement, a large group of Ukrainian troops. It is known that in the “boiler” were the soldiers of the 79-th and 24-th separate aeromobile brigades, 72-th separate mechanized brigade and a battalion of nazvanie “Azov” and “Shakhtersk”. Militiamen opened fire at them with Saur-Grave, and from the villages of Semenovka and Rams, and then went on the attack on the Marinovka and neighboring same checkpoint to complete the neighborhood South of the boiler enemy.
On Monday in Luhansk oblast militia was also shot down An-26. In the airplane there were eight people. Four crew members were saved, and the other two were detained by militia, the destiny of two more was unknown, they were searching.”
Источник: http://translate.yandex.net/tr-url/ru-en.en/politikus.ru/events/24613-transportnyy-an-26-sbit-na-vostoke-ukrainy-zayavili-ochevidcy.html
Politikus.ru
Anonymous said…17 July, 2014 22:41
“1. The flight track seems like the plane may have been diverted.”
See:
Потерпевший крушение “Боинг” отклонился от курса (The crashed Boeing strayed)
http://lifenews.ru/news/136841 (trans) http://translate.yandex.net/tr-url/ru-en.ru/lifenews.ru/news/136841
“For an unknown reason the pilots decided to change the direction of flight over Ukraine.
Malaysian Boeing 777” deviated from the course of tens of kilometers just before they fell near the border of Ukraine and Russia. Three days ago the same flight Amsterdam – Kuala Lumpur flew over Eastern Ukraine on a special air corridor for civil aviation.
Modern programs available to everyone, allow you to track the movement of civilian flights. Any user could see strange circumstance: July 14, flight MAS 17 flying across the Donetsk oblast is far to the South.
July 15, were again recorded only a slight deviation from the normal trajectory in the sky over India. And on Wednesday the plane was flying, as usual, through Germany, Poland and for Ukraine a lot further South than on the day of the disaster.
on July 17, as shown by the tracker flights, the aircraft first flew through areas of active hostilities. Respondents LifeNews experts claim that any such modification of the route to be agreed with the Supervisory authority. In Ukraine it is called “Aeromeh”. In this Department have not commented on the disaster, which killed hundreds of people…”
The video shows the flight paths used on 14, 15, 16 & 17 July. One can see that the 17 July route was a huge departure of the others. Obviously, it was to bring the aircraft over Novorossia to be shot down by banderivtsy forces. Likely the actual shooting down was American or Israeli commanded and run.
вот так
@Larchmonter: The Militia has to keep fighting, destroying the Ukies.
Strelkov has just announced there will be no ceasefire (per Gleb Bazov)
NSA social networking tools – possible uses:
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/07/spy-agencies-dirty-trick-powers-revealed-snowden.html
The latest psi op info is that the passenger plane was hit by missiles that were fired by rebels at a lower flying Ukie plane but missed that and went on to ..oops..hit the Indonesian plane at 30,000 feet. This sounds really implausible, but what do I know?
A very heavy day in the news cycle but the strategy of the Russian Federation does not follow the news cycle. Ukraine is a long-term, existential project and nothing has changed. Russia will be open, honest, burn whoever needs to be burned. Russia will call once again for peace: and once again Kiev will not deliver.
All support to Novorossia!
– from Nazi-occupied Amerika
@VineyardSaker – Another piece of evidence…
Last night (North America time) I was monitoring the coverage of the alleged Russian cross-border shelling. On Twitter the Ukie propaganda crowd was going ape-shit about it and had been for more than twelve hours, but there was very very little coverage of the incident in the Western mainstream media. There was a Foreign Policy post, another hit piece from “Interpret Mag” (run by the “Institute of Modern Russia”), but that’s about it.
*None* of the major mainstream media outlets picked up the story which might have otherwise made for excellent anti-Russia propaganda. And this struck me as rather odd.
Now it makes sense, if they were told to hold off because something much bigger and more sensation was in the works.
Of course this is all speculation based on circumstantial evidence, but it fits with what we know.
@22:42
Thanks for the reply and that settles it for me. I have cross posted your response at Deep Politics Forum, where another Russian speaking commentator questions geophraphical anomalies and then the Cossacks anomalies. thanks again.
https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?13843-Malaysian-plane-crashes-on-Ukraine-Russia-border-live&p=90395#post90395
As you point out, there will be conflicting claims about who is behind the shoot-down, but can’t we stress that Kiev is ultimately responsible for the airspace, and question why they claimed it was okay for commercial flights through a war zone?
Exactly. They cannot simultaneously claim that they had known that NAF possessed such capabilities and justify not closing the airspace completely (not just to 7,500 or 10,000 m). They were well aware that some of their BUKs had been seized and did nothing? That is criminal negligence. I hope the Ukies will be made officially accountable for this.
@Saker re: alleged intercepted transcript.
It is impossible for a Buk to be manned by a bunch of Cossacks.
P.S. Now the Ukrainian MOD is saying that the militia did not seize any Buks.
Some perspective on flying over conflict zones:
MH17 disaster: Flights over war zones ‘because it’s cheaper’
…….”But before the MH17 crash, security concerns closed Ukrainian airspace.
The US Federal Aviation Administration issued a “special notice” regarding Ukrainian airspace advising airlines to “exercise extreme caution due to the continuing potential for instability” and Eurocontrol warned pilots and airlines to avoid Ukranian airspace due to serious risks. Aviation experts last night said operators continued to fly across the zone because it was the quickest and cheapest route for some flights.
Brian Flynn, a spokesman for Eurocontrol, which directs air traffic across Europe, said Ukrainian aviation authorities had closed the airspace below 32,000 feet on Monday after having earlier restricted the airspace below 26,000 feet, on July 1.
In both cases, the closures came as a result of security concerns after rebels shot down Ukrainian military aircraft.
Mr Flynn said it is up to the Ukrainian government to decide whether and how to restrict airspace, with Eurocontrol responsible for helping to implement those decisions.
Before the crash, 300 commercial aircraft a day were flying through eastern Ukrainian airspace, with most serving as long-haul flights between Europe and Southeast Asia. Mr Flynn said such flights typically cruise at between 33,000 and 37,000 feet.”
Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/business/aviation/mh17-disaster-flights-over-war-zones-because-its-cheaper-20140718-zua0y.html#ixzz37m362PFz
Two large civil aviation enigmas in the space of 4 months occur in the same Airline and same model plane.
In addition, the flight deviates its usual path to go through a war zone where several aircraft have been shot in the last few weeks.
What is the probability of all these elements coming together accidentally?
Same Airline
Same Model
Very unclear/suspicious circumstances
In the space of 4 months
Out of its usual path
Instructed to go through a war zone
It has to be a false flag.
@ Larchmonter445,
Who’s able to cast a ‘stone’ that kills many ‘birds’ in one blow.
Cui bono?
Gabriel: Misdirection. What the eyes see and the ears hear, the mind believes.
Stanley: War? Who are we at war with?
Gabriel: Anyone who impinges on America’s freedom. Terrorist states, Stanley. Someone must bring their war to them. They bomb a church, we bomb ten. They hijack a plane, we take out an airport. They execute American tourists, we tactically nuke an entire city. Our job is to make terrorism so horrific that it becomes unthinkable to attack Americans.
‘Swordfish.’
The info I posted at 17 July, 2014 23:12 is a rebuttal of the faked SBU?Mossad/CIA recording which claimed the guilty Buk system was a Novorussian one located at Chernukhino. The author of the piece was showing how a Buk M1 system, if stationed there, would have been unable to hit the airliner where it was shot down. Which means the recording had to be fake.
вот так
Let this be a warning to all nations who thought they could stand by and ignore civilian casualties and massive human rights violations while they demonized Russia and propped up neoliberal Nazis in Ukraine.
It was said over and over again that this war could not be contained within the borders of Ukraine.
The war is just beginning.
I hope that I am not right, but this looks like either:
1. An attempt to bring down Putin
2. An Anglo-American False Flag Operation.
I hope that this is not the case, but do not hold out much hope for the truth being told. The investigation must NOT be led by the US to cover up whatever they did. It also could have been a Ukie job by the Nazis in their haste to regain the initiative. As Saker says, we won’t know for awhile. As far as Putin’s plane “not being in the area”, that might be to defuse the crises. But the important thing is to find out what really happened.
A lot of interesting chatter here.
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/543733-mh17-down-near-donetsk.html
The SBU’s alleged intercepted phone calls are on page 10 and 11, with the part on page 11 apparently having been redacted by Stratfor in publishing them. Maybe it was too preposterous to share.
Transcript: (-The translation from Ukrainian to English was made by Stratfor and is unofficial.)
First call
Igor Bezler: We have just shot down a plane. Group Minera. It fell down beyond Yenakievo.
Vasili Geranin: Pilots. Where are the pilots?
IB: Gone to search for and photograph the plane. It’s smoking.
VG: How many minutes ago?
IB: About 30 minutes ago.
Second call 40 minutes later
“Major”: These are Chernukhin folks show down the plane. From the Chernukhin check point. Those cossacks who are based in Chernukhino.
“Greek”: Yes, Major.
“Major”: The plane fell apart in the air. In the area of Petropavlovskaya mine. The first “200” (code word for dead person). We have found the first “200.” A Civilian.
“Greek”: Well, what do you have there?
“Major”: In short, it was 100 percent a passenger (civilian) aircraft.
“Greek”: Are many people there?
“Major”: Holy sh-t! The debris fell right into the yards (of homes).
“Greek”: What kind of aircraft?
“Major”: I haven’t ascertained this. I haven’t been to the main sight. I am only surveying the scene where the first bodies fell. There are the remains of internal brackets, seats and bodies.
“Greek”: Is there anything left of the weapon?
“Major”: Absolutely nothing
“Greek”: Are there documents?
“Major”: Yes
“Major”: Yes, of one Indonesian student. From a university in Thompson.
Militant: Regarding the plane shot down in the area of Snizhne-Torez. It’s a civilian one. Fell down near Grabove. There are lots of corpses of women and children. The Cossacks are out there looking at all this.
They say on TV it’s AN-26 transport plane, but they say it’s written Malaysia Airlines on the plane. What was it doing on Ukraine’s territory?
Nikolay Kozitsin: That means they were carrying spies. They shouldn’t be f…cking flying. There is a war going on.
—————————–
Apparently the posters lifted this from Kyivpost here.
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/separatists-admit-downing-a-civilian-plane-in-tapped-conversation-full-transcript-356545.html
Gayle,
Thanks for the update.
The war, the war, the war. Clean out the Ukraine. Sanctions and cold war II be damned. Russia has protection in the BRICS, with China who sees what’s coming her way next, and with self-preservation facing down NATO.
What NATO sees is a war with an opponent that it cannot beat without total devastation.
Right now, Exxon is in jeopardy with its oil deals in Russia. Sanctions leave it in a precarious position. There is a player on the oil stage who has all the money needed to do the exploration—China. So Russia will squeeze Exxon on the other side to push back at sanctions. Presidents have met sudden endings because of the Seven Sisters.
The ‘experts’ keep saying Russia is hurting economically. The facts are quite divergent. Some indicators are down. Others are stacking up for growth.
And militarily, the Russian command must be feeling very good about the war in Ukraine.
The other side got more bad news about the ISIS growth in the Islamic world. The Taliban inside Pakistan just joined ISIS. America has huge security issues in Syria-Iraq-Iran-Lebanon-Jordan-Israel-Egypt and Libya. And they need Russia’s help to break up things into digestible sizes. That is good for Russian influence on the ground, in diplomacy and with weapons sales.
The West is going to want Russia to save it again in many ways. Growth, Eurasian market access and cooperation in anti-terror. This will reverse itself, this Ukraine mess, once it is clear that Ukraine is lost. Half of Europe is bailing on the American strategy.
After all, the dynamic was to get Ukraine and deprive Russia. Now, they can look at Eurasia, 9 times the population of Ukraine, and get involved economically and not have to waste 35 billion on a bunch of nazis and psychopaths in Kiev.
A cool headed consigliere would tell them to wait to see who follows Putin. The odds are, they’ll get a pushover like Medvedev was and they can raise hell later with Russian stability if still matters.
By then, China might be the real menace to their priapic dreams of one world under their thumb.
Check out the ZH article on the “smoking gun” youtube clip released by the Kievbots:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-17/ukraine-releases-youtube-clip-proving-rebels-shot-down-malaysian-flight-mh-17
“…And yet, something here smells very fishy…
First, the Russian version of the clip which was released in parallel, and shown below, there is a major discrepancy in the time stamp, with the English-dubbed version showing the conversation between Major and Grek taking place at 5:11 pm and 5:32 pm, while the original one has it at 4:33 pm, 5:14 pm and 5:32 pm.
Then there is what gmorder has revealed is either a clearly erroneous creation timestamp, or the video was actually uploaded yesterday.
Finally, we clearly have no way of authenticating the recording or the participants, it was just over a month ago, on June 5, when in another attempt to cast blame and discredit the separatists, Ukraine released another trademark YouTube clip seeking to disparage and frame Kozitsyn, titled “Russian Cossack Formations are Responsible For Chaos In Ukraine.”
The earlier clip is in many respects identical. Read the whole piece.
Is there a connection between Malaysia flight 370 that is still missing and unaccounted for and flight 17?
Could these two Boeing 777 model 200-ER aircraft be one in the same?
BOT TAK:
Buk system was a Novorussian one located at Chernukhino. The author of the piece was showing how a Buk M1 system, if stationed there, would have been unable to hit the airliner where it was shot down. Which means the recording had to be fake.
The author has the crash site mislocated. Its well NW of Snizhne and Torez at Krasny Luch.
From Chenukhino, Lugansk Oblast to Krasny Luch where the plane fell is only 15 miles. Well within range of the Buk system.
The ridiculous claims made so far was that it was shot down from Russia, or from Snizhne or Torez. This SBU claim is at least plausible, even if the calls are most likely complete fakes.
And the Hillarity show may start:
Clinton: Europe must lead on plane react.
Hillary Clinton says there’s “growing awareness” that Malaysia Airlines passenger plane was probably shot down by Russian insurgents — but argued that European leaders must “take the lead” on any action if that proves to be the case.
Clinton made the comments about the doomed plane in a wide-ranging interview with TV host Charlie Rose set to air Thursday night. Portions of the taped interview were released ahead of airtime.
Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2014/07/hillary-clinton-europe-take-lead-plane-109069.html#ixzz37m8uYerm
From les crises,some crazy twitters from Carl Bildt who forward all Kiev BS…
http://www.les-crises.fr/un-boeing-777-de-malaysian-airlines-secrase-a-lest-de-lukraine/#comments
Forgot to sign the ZH link post – very good piece talking also about the Syrian gas attack fake youtube hit piece.
I studied a similar system at the university’s military department for two and a half years. That included only theoretical training. If I were to go to a military service after that, like some of my friends did, I would spend at least another year to even shoot my first rocket. Some of my friends who served did not have that chance, because real launches are costly, require to go to far training grounds etc.
So, if DNR acquired the BUKs, they would need to man them, and that would be an extremely hard task, and so the theory of DNR shooting the Malaysian plane is small, in my opinion.
If Russia provided the BUKs, that would be with the people who could operate them, the Russian military. However, given the kind of war action in Donetsk and Lugansk, I’d say that supplying BUKs to the “rebels” would be not very high on the priority list in relation to other weapons.
Did Ukies do it? Or rather, could they do it? Yes they could and they did 2001. Would they do it? I still can hardly believe that somebody in Ukrainian army would have a “courage” to commit this crime on purpose.
My conclusion there is it’s a terrible mistake, made or provoked by Ukies.
If I were hard pressed to produce a scenario, this is what it would be:
Ukrainian jets used the Malaysian airplane as a shield to get to their destination over DNR/LNR, once they reached it, they detached from the Malaysian plane, at which point they were targeted by the Russian-operated (the chance of that is very small) SAM that hit the wrong target.
The idea that this is a false flag rings hollow. It’s not that such things don’t occur–they obviously do–but a false flag is done to make an enemy appear to be depraved. Even if one became persuaded that the self-defenses forces shot down the plane, it would be clear to anybody that doing so was an accident and not done intentionally. If one plans a false flag–especially one involving the death of over 200 innocent people, one doesn’t use it to accuse the enemy of mere negligence or mistake.
I don’t know who shot down the plane, but I really don’t think it matters much, either. The plane should not have been there, and whoever was responsible for it being there holds the lion’s share of the blame.
Déjà vu , it’s the Novorussian “Markale” incident. I was wondering how they will impose “savage killers” image to Novorussians, since they‘re not on Ukrainian territory and they couldn’t possibly hurt civilians. Well now I know. And Malaysia airlines, again?! It’s just too obvious…
I do think(I already say it before)that Putin has been to weak.
The Empire only respects strong players.Until the takeover of Crimee it was ok for me.Putin reacted fast and very well.But since then,Moscow tried to much to compromise,to believe that some UE countries would change their minds etc…there is only one answer possible with the US/UE/NATO:force.
Putin should have enter the Ukraine going even to Kiev to put the Yats,nazis,Cia and co out of the country,then declare Novorussia free from the ukies,from Odessa to Karkhov.Eliminate the Oligarchs.Of course he would have received strong sanctions,but where are we now?Exactly at the same point but without NR and still with the nazi Junta.Nato is taking over every day a little bit more of Western Ukraine.
It is too late now.Putin will loose everything for not having been strong enough.They are preparing a maidan 2 in Moscow.
Gas bills are unpaid for 5 billions.
I do not see a single advantage for having been so weak.
Diplomacy is always better it is ok for me,but NOT with US/UE/NATO it is not possible,no way.
Calling them our ‘partners’ has absolutely zero efect on them.They only understand one thing,the use of force.It is sad but true.
There is an article at Zerohedge about supposed evidence of audio recording between people responsible for shooting.Read it up- some interesting anomalies.Like |the evidence | was created at 16 July 2014 at 19:10:24 pm.Can someone download and check it out please?Not at home and cannot do it.From my pov though looks like another flash flaag by the elite-they have most to gain since their project Ukraine is not doing well at all.Although there is a chance for genuine mistake from NAF IF they really have equipment capable to shoot planes at such height.
The MH17 propaganda war is in full swing.
US proxy and vassal state head, the Australian prime minister has received orders from the masters in Washington to get the ball rolling.
See here – http://m.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/malaysia-airlines-flight-mh17-terrible-tragedy-tony-abbott-offers-condolences-to-families-for-what-would-be-unspeakable-crime-20140718-3c4sx.html
It’s peculiar how these puppets can be so sure of the ‘facts’ given the average aircrash investigations takes many months and in most cases more than a year or two.
It’s also curious why Australian special forces are conducting high altitude and extreme cold weather training given there’s no such terrain in Australia. See here –
http://m.smh.com.au/national/australian-soldier-killed-in-mount-cook-nz-fall-was-instructor-rescuer-says-20140717-ztxf4.html
Training in anticipation of being deployed in a cold weather country perhaps…???
The war has begun – the ‘allies’ are being mustered and it’s now only a matter of time before the US gets what it so desperately needs to divert attention from its crumbling economy.
Russia and China had better be ready the ‘allies’ are coming.
In my mind, it is now clear.
It is a false flag through entrapment and false Intel. The rebels have been played with the help of AWACS control.
It is a case of a setup, a devious entrapment, diverting the plane so that its route is just above a Buk missile system operated by rebels.
Ingenious indeed, probably with chatter thrown in making them think that it was a UKie military transport plane.
Likely. The US neocons are devious enough as they have done worse.
They will not hesitate to do anything for geopolitical or political gains.
As usual the US neocons’ hands are drenched in the blood of the innocent.
Can anyone confirm the possibility of a miss-shoot of Putins plane which was reported to be in the area at clost to the same time? Just heard this and cannot confirm at this time.
Can someone please translate this tweet that is within Strelkov’s summaries? Thanks/ http://vk.com/strelkov_info
Scroll down to Today @ 2:54 p.m.
Malaysian Airlines MH17 plane was travelling almost the same route as Russia’s President Vladimir Putin’s jet shortly before the crash that killed 298, Interfax news agency reports citing sources.
According to Russia Today (RT)
http://rt.com/news/173672-malaysia-plane-crash-putin/
fwiw
I warned of a possible false flag this morning (at NBC website) about six hours before the plane crash. Insight was from information learned at this website (where else can you learn about the “Cauldron” ?! = almost nowhere, in English) You can easily detect words and phrases gleaned from other comments found at the Saker’s website.
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2014/07/17/24851041-mortars-fired-from-gaza-during-five-hour-truce-israel-says#th4097220-c84499493
Reasoning detailed here:
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2014/07/17/24863216-putin-says-ukraine-bears-responsibility-for-malaysia-flight-jet-crash#th4097923-c84511632
If, hpothetically, the rebels in East Ukraine did indeed shoot down MH 17, we have to ask, “Why?” They obviously had no incentive to do so deliberately. Therefore, we would presume that they mistook the commercial jet for a hostile Ukrainian Air Force aircraft. The tweet this morning made in the name of Igor Strelkov claimed that the rebels had just shot down an AN-26 Ukrainian military cargo plane (as they had done several days ago). The recordings that are now being disseminated (by either Ukrainian intelligence or intelligence services who are assisting them), if they are authentic, also evidence the expectation on the part of the rebels that the plane shot down was an AN-26. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/17/ukraine-audio-malaysia-airlines-crash_n_5597452.html So, what was it that made the rebels so sure that the plane was an AN-26? Let’s leave that question aside for one moment and return to it later.
What seems to be a highly significant bit of information can be gained from going to the “Flight Aware–Live Flight Tracking” webpage that allows one to track the progress of flights in progress and see the full flight path of completed flights. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/MAS17/history/20140703/1000Z/EHAM/WMKK
If you type in “Malaysia airlines” in the “Airline” block and “17” in the “Flight #” block and hit the blue “track flight” button, the spreadsheet will populate with all MH 17 flights from 19 July, the day after tomorrow, back to 6 July. Hit the “17 July” link and the interrupted flight path for the destroyed jet liner, ending in eastern Ukraine, will populate on the map at top. Notice the path where it runs north of the Sea of Azov and right through the war zone in Eastern Ukraine. (Zoom in to see more detail.)
Now go to the 16 July flight and compare the flight path. You will see that the 16 July (and all the earlier flights that I checked) run over the Sea of Azov at least 50 miles, and perhaps more, south of the 17 July flight. In other words, they all bypass the area where the intense fighting and military aircraft shoot downs have been taking place.
The obvious question: Why did the 17 July flight path run considerably further north and right through the war zone? If the 17 July flight had hewed to the normal MH 17 flight path, it would never have entered the area in which it was destroyed.
So there are two questions we must ask:
1. If, indeed, the rebels shot down this flight, expecting it to be a hostile Ukrainian military aircraft, why did they have that expectation? Was this possibly a deception fed to either Ukrainians or to them via the Russians to prime the rebels to shoot a plane that was actually a commercial jet liner?
2. Was MH 17 on 17 July deliberately diverted from a safer, more southern route that it had previously traveled onto a more northern flight path that more-or-less coincided with the notional false intelligence feed to the East Ukrainian rebels?
Finally, if (1) and (2) are both true, will the black box indicate the source of the change in flight route, i.e., whether Ukrainian air control authorities deliberately directed the plane into the path of danger?
And here we go down the rabbit hole …
It seems an AN-26 was possibly shot down today over Donetsk Oblast. Alleged video of the shoot down is available here:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B7WD1qpD5xU
So possibly the information posted to Strelkov-Info may have been correct, but mixed up videos.
Also, photos have surfaced of Ukrainian BUK systems being deployed this morning. They were captured by a passing car on a road near Soledar.
http://shurigin.livejournal.com/532723.html
There are allegations that the plane shows signs of damage of fighter canons.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Vitaliy_Ivanov/status/489871145324544000
There is an also now infamous video of the exact moment of impact.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=-hbAirCuNnA
Interestingly, there is no sign of a smoke trail through the sky following the plane.
leading voice analysts at Duke University (I think) and in Switzerland proved time and again that the Osama bin Laden videotapes appearing mysteriously throughout the Bush administration were fraudulent. We already know they do fraudulent recordings very well – well enough to fool the public at least, which is all that really matters to them.
There is a real possibility the missile was intended for the aircraft carrying Putin.
MH aircraft look strikingly similar to the Russian presidential aircraft which was returning to moscow only about 20 minutes earlier.
A botched attempt by the US to covertly dispose of its current nemesis perhaps?
Let’s not forget the CIA have a command post right in the centre of Kiev.
A word of caution regarding the Spanish ATC in Kiev.
There is another journalist insisting that that account is all a disinformation fake. That there is no such person. I don’t know what to believe.
https://twitter.com/PabVis
Malaysia has been a vocal opponent of the actions of the ‘only democracy’ in the ME. The Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission (KLWCC) found the Apartheid State guilty of crimes against humanity.
Add the following to it China finds spy bugs in Jiang’s Boeing jet and the realms of the impossible opens its gates wide open.
@ Andrew,
The debris of the MAS plane is spread out over and area of appr 8 miles. That only happens when a plane disintegrates at high altitude.
@ Dan Greens,
That far into the flight [and normally a few minutes after rotate] the plane flies on auto-pilot [the blackboxes will show if there have been any manual corrections and/or changes]. Even though the MAS DH17 is/was a relatively older plane, it had all the electronics on board to fly without a hitch from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.
This is human interference.
Cui bono?
India’s Prime Minister, Narendra Modi, was scheduled to be in that approximate airspace about an hour after MH 17. Curious.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/pms-flight-was-close-behind/article6222102.ece?homepage=true
According to this guy(who has been neutral during the conflict) The Spanish speaking air traffic controller is claimed to be a fake who speaks Spanish out of a Romanian phone number.
https://www.facebook.com/anatolijsharij/posts/10204477930736730
Clearly he is not neutral : nor r
Daniel Rich:
It looked like much of the plane was in one general area, and certainly the explosive impact on video appears to show much of the fuel load going up in smoke at once on the ground. Also the pictures I saw of bodies on the ground do not show tremendous trauma. Many were stated to still be buckled in their seats with no burns or visible lacerations. The same goes for suitcases – they appear intact on the ground in many cases.
The scattering of debris would occur from differing terminal velocities of pieces of debris. They all have to decelerate and fall from the same height, and the reason they scatter is because some fall faster.
All:
Why is Maylasia Air reporting the plane down at Krasnyi Luch:
“According to information provided by Kiev Air Traffic Control, the location of the plane’s emergency locator beacon is 48 degrees 7 minutes and 23 seconds North; and 38 degrees 31 minutes and 33 seconds East.”
But Wikipedia shows it crashing at Hrabove 4 miles away:
Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 (MH17/MAS17)[a] was a scheduled international passenger flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur. On 17 July 2014, the Boeing 777 crashed[5][6] near Hrabove in Donetsk Oblast, Ukraine, approximately 40 km (25 mi) from the Ukraine–Russia border.
48_7_56N 38_39_19E
Is this the debris field being spoken of? Where is the main crash site?
This event appears to be a false flag timed to divert world opinion from the isreali land invasion in gaza. Always note, who benefits…..