I am very sorry to have to tell you all that it is too early to conclude that the Novorussian forces did not shoot down the Malaysian airliners. Though most Novorussian air defense systems are man-portable, the Resistance forces did get their hands on some 9K37 Buk missile systems which are quite capable of hitting a civilian airliner at normal cruising speed and altitude.
I am not, repeat, NOT saying that the Novorussians did it. Furthermore, at least one Russian military expert, Igor Korochenko, has declared that the Ukrainian side had officially declared that the Ukrainian soldiers had managed to disable these systems before they fell into the Novorussian hands. But even that is hardly proof of anything. First, I have seen no such Ukrainian official statement. Second, the Ukrainians soldiers could have lied to cover their collective read ends. Third, the Novorusssians could have fixed these systems. So unless the Novorussians have some solid proof that their Buks were inoperable, they have to be included in a list of possible suspects.
There are already speculations about a false flag, about Ukie military aircraft seen flying next to the Malaysian aircraft, even about some parachutes seen near the place were the plane was shot down. I have even seen some speculations about Putin’s official aircraft looking like the Malaysian one and that this could have been an attempt to shoot it down. Clearly the rumor mill is blasting at full power.
Still, the Ukies have already immensely benefited from this incident: now that all the media is completely focused on what happened to this Malaysian airliner, nobody is informed of the catastrophic failure of Poroshenko “surprise” offensive. Right there we already have the first cui bono going to the junta. Second, since no matter what happened the western regimes and media will blame the Russians for this incident, the Ukies will use it in their propaganda campaign (they apparently have already asked NATO for “help” whatever that means). So that is a second cui bono for the junta. As for the Novorussians and Russia, this incident is really the last thing they need.
For whatever it’s worth, and without wanting to give anybody false hopes, I personally think that it is extremely unlikely that the Russians did it because they have a fully integrated, multi layered, advance air defense systems staffed only by specialists. In contrast, the Ukies have an old, decrepit, non-integrated air defense “system” staffed by underpaid, demoralized and poorly trained conscripts. And since the Kremlin likes to maintain the illusion that it does not control the Novorussians, even if there is proof that the latter are responsible for this catastrophe, this will not directly implicate Russia (which would have been the worst option). I hope that the Russians will be able to prove that the Novorussians did not do it by, for example, finding key parts of the missile(s) which hit MH17 or by showing all the Resistance missiles “unshot”, right there in the hangars were they were found.
Another thing which has not been done is a careful calculation of the exact flight envelope of the missiles in Novorussian hands. In the real world, you cannot just say that a missile can shoot a target going at speed X and altitude Y. You need to calculate an exact flight envelope and compare it against the exact flight characteristics of the target supposedly hit. In other words, until somebody makes such an analysis, there is no proof that the Novorussian Buks could have shot down this aircraft.
Then, let’s see what the black boxes show. Apparently, those were found by the good guys and sent to Moscow. Also, the Russian Air Defenses have the exact flight parameters of the Malaysian aircraft and of any missile(s) which could have hit him. If the Ukies did it, chances are pretty good that the Russians will be able to prove it. Alas, if the Novorussians did it, the Russians will probably also provide the evidence as covering up for it would be foolish.
For the time being, let’s not run after each rumor and let’s just wait for 48 hours or so, when at least we will have some facts to look at. And let’s pray that this was not a mistake by the Novorussians.
The Saker
The Black Box and Voice Recorder will tell the story of the plane. It won’t necessarily tell the story of the missile strike.
You have to hope the Russians have the telemetry, radar, satellite tracking to prove the truth or disprove the American version.
Meanwhile,
Andrew: in one video as it comes straight down, it is tailing a plume while we can see it. White. Then the camera loses plane and plume.
The other, where the fuselage impacts and we see the black cloud with fuel fireball, that is pretty contained area. But the tail section came down and spit off its exterior in another area. People say debris and falling bodies from the plane were hitting houses beyond the fields.
What if it was a bomb not a missile?
And I’m thinking a bomb on the exterior so it looks like external to internal hit.
Lost souls, so many kids again, innocents, horrors, and all for ideology, power and greed.
We need to keep our prayer chains going. This is a long war against the Satanic.
B4 msm shrills start WW3 they should perhaps google “Iran Air 655” (1988, USS Vincennes) and research any number of lost civilian aircraft from all sides of cold-war conflict.
**@Anonymous: Saker, care to comment on the alleged intercepted transcript?
Frankly, I wish I did not have to, but here is what I can say. I have no idea whether this is truly a transcript, or a US-provided doctored recording. I sure hope it’s not real if only because if it is, it shows some major lack of operational security on the Novorussian/Russian side. I will say this though: the recording claims that “Cossacks from a checkpoint shot down the plane” now that sounds really wrong and makes me thing that this is a doctored tape based on a conversation of another shooting down, possibly of an An-26. I just don’t see a Buk at a checkpoint manned by Cossacks shooting 10km in the sky to shoot down a plane flying so far away from it. Just doesn’t sound right to me.
How about you – any thoughts?**
It’s doctored all right:
http://shrek1.livejournal.com/622990.html
Andrew said…18 July, 2014 00:28
“From Chenukhino, Lugansk Oblast to Krasny Luch where the plane fell is only 15 miles. Well within range of the Buk system.”
Even if you have the right location, it is still out of range for a Buk M1 in Chenukhino. 15 mi. is about 25km which is beyond the capability of the Buk M1 to hit a plane at that altitude, according to the author of the piece I posted in 17 July, 2014 23:12.
Andrew said…18 July, 2014 02:25
“…Is this the debris field being spoken of? Where is the main crash site?”
There is debris scattered over a wide area. The transponder could have broken off and landed away from the main wreckage site.
вот так
Russian President Vladimir Putin said Ukraine’s military campaign against the separatists was to blame.
“This tragedy would not have happened, if there had been peace on that land, or in any case, if military operations in southeastern Ukraine had not been renewed,” Putin said in televised remarks. “And without a doubt the government of the territory on which it happened bears responsibility for this frightening tragedy.”
The idiot thugs you condone and justify on this site were clearly responsible for the deaths of almost 300 innocent civilians: a war crime and the worst possible tactical move they could have made. The commenters here spinning ridiculous lies, excuses and conspiracy theories should be ashamed.
Like another poster said…this is all to divert the attention from Israel that is slaughtering in a most brutal manner the poor Palestinians.
Meanwhile, pray for the Palestinians, the people against the Kiev Junta and pray daily for Putin.
…or a false flag for USA to force EU into sanctions against Russia. Think of Yugoslav wars and false flag attacks which served against Serbia in more then one occasion.
@ Andrew,
In that case I stand corrected. I just saw some pictures and a video and they all support you[r view].
Saker,
Russia Today host Max Keiser is pulling pro-Russian comments about this from his (very popular) personal website, but leaving up pro-Ukie comments saying the Russians definitely did it.
I tested this, posting reasonable comments saying there was no proof Russia was guilty. All my comments were deleted after an hour. Even when I used different IPs to post.
Keiser’s ‘partner’ (i.e. unmarried girlfriend) Stacey Herbet runs his site. She is writing comments herself, saying that the Militia may have had the “FSB helping them” to shoot down the plane! She is leaving up comments saying Russia did it, and calling the Militia “Cossacks”. She is posting external links to sites that are implying Russia is guilty of this crime – so fast, so ‘by the numbers’, it’s like she’s following a script.
Wow.
This sordid business reminds me of RT’s Liz Wahl, who quit live on air. It turned out she’d planned the stunt with her Jewish ‘friends’ like James Kirchick, Senior Fellow at the zionist Foreign Policy Institute. (You can find selfies of Wahl and Kirchuk via a Startpage search.) Which explained why the Foreign Policy Institute was sending out cryptic tweets five minutes before Wahl resigned on air, saying things like “Word on the streets says that something big might happen on RT in 20-25 minutes”, and “Guys, tune in RT” – with tinyurls going right to live web broadcasts of Wahl’s show.
Keiser is an ex-New York stockbroker who has admitted to cheating clients and breaking the law (on his own TV show and in print, multiple times). He works from London. ‘Keiser’ is a name used by many Ashkenazi Jewish families. Draw your own conclusions.
Keiser was on alex jones….laughing and encouraging
investments in stock or options on US prison system
AJ peels the ghoul onion that is america..
And keiser says he’s all in on that
RT has been flooded with Hasbara trolls and nsa
operators since Syria conflict
Between steering thought and mk ultra games
there is hearst media….makee mor money
hey….we control minds too ya know
on a side note..
Any misdirect that helps Israhell is prime for them
now that they have started ground invasion into gaza
The USA is now calling for a ceasefire to assess the scene. How convenient for the embattled and surrounded Ukies that would be.
They’d get to restart the game with fresh supplies and tactical advantage.
Anonymous Jan (Igniting) said…
Malaysian Airlines MH17 plane was travelling almost the same route as Russia’s President Vladimir Putin’s jet shortly before the crash that killed 298, Interfax news agency reports citing sources.
Actually no, but the great circle paths Amsterdam-KL and Rio-Moscow do intersect at the Ukraine’s north-west border, see here.
Anonymous said…
There is a real possibility the missile was intended for the aircraft carrying Putin. MH aircraft look strikingly similar to the Russian presidential aircraft which was returning to moscow only about 20 minutes earlier. A botched attempt by the US to covertly dispose of its current nemesis perhaps?
Though according to this RT article Putin’s plane was in the area about 37 minutes after the Malaysian plane.
Anonymous said…
according to Carlos, 2 Ukie fighters (cazas voleros) were on the airliner’s tail up to 3 minutes before it went down.
A simple explanation, probably too simple to be true, is that the US and Kiev attempted to assassinate Putin by sending up two fighters to shoot down his plane, and that the pilots mistook the Malaysian airliner for Putin’s plane.
Note that it is very unlikely that Putin’s plane was travelling in that part of the world without any protection from the Russian military, who would have detected any threat to it by fighters.
A less obvious and even less likely explanation is that the attempted assassination was done by the US electronically hijacking the Malaysian airliner and putting it on a collision course with Putin’s plane. In that case the Russian military would have been aware of the situation and would have shot down the Malaysian jet to prevent a collision.
We (or rather, aviation experts) need to know the exact flight paths of the two airliners (especially any course deviation by the Malaysian plane) and the exact location(s) of the debris from the crashed Malaysian jet.
@SanctuaryOne,
Yes, people in the US will wake up to read that one.
http://indianexpress.com/article/world/world-others/white-house-urges-ukraine-ceasefire-as-missile-takes-down-malaysian-jet-at-least-295-killed/
Now we see the benefit of shooting down the plane – for the Ukies. It is not *proof* that it was the Ukies, unfortunately.
fwiw I listed a ceasefire as one of the reasons for the false flag.
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2014/07/17/24863216-putin-says-ukraine-bears-responsibility-for-malaysia-flight-jet-crash#th4097923-c84511632
@any thoughts
How to start a war blaming the “other”:
USS-Maine, Lusitania, Pearl Harbor, Golf of Tonkin. Just a little sample.
This is one of the very few sane ideas coming out amid the fog of disinformation. Let’s transmit it as widely as possible. Here is how I have done that: http://jiwankshetri.blogspot.com/2014/07/who-brought-down-malaysian-plain.html
White House calls for ‘full, credible and unimpeded’ investigation of Flight 17.
Then send in the guys who investigated the USS Liberty attack…
There are these options:
1. Plane downed by UKie engaging Jets _purposefully_ (witnessed by air controller)
2. Plane downed by missile _purposefully_ to implicate and vilify Russia with the help of US technology, AWACS.
3. Plane downed by mistake, as an assassination attempt on Putin.
4. Plane downed by mistake by UKie missile launcher, through incompetence, or thinking it is Russian military.
5. Plane downed by mistake by Russia by mistake.
6. Plane downed by Russia purposefully.
7. Plane downed by terrorist bomb on plane.
Now use the filter: who benefits?
Apart from possible mistakes, I would favour possibility 1, 2, or 3 in decreasing probability.
Spanish Carlos twitter had been shot down : can no longer access the feed
Strelkov says there will be no ceasefire as the due can be accessed easily
Well, at least one conclusion is maybe possible even now: stop buying (and flying) Boeing!
The eyes of the world are on Eastern Ukraine in the wake of the downing of Malaysian flight MH17.
If, as seems likely, the militia were responsible they should man up, accept responsibility and apologise to the world. This is the honourable course of action and ultimately will win them kudos and respect.
Implausible denial will only ultimately damage their cause and harden public opinion.
Nobody seriously believes this was a deliberate act, although it is being portrayed here in Australia as a ‘terrorist act’ (28 of the victims are Australian). All the evidence points to a terrible mistake and it should be openly acknowledged as such.
The militia, which appears poised on the cusp of a decisive military victory, should take the opportunity to explain to the world their plight and their cause whilst international attention is focused on the region.
Interesting development; it seems Ukrainian radar was active and tracking the flight. Is this a repeat of 2001?
Affairs like the disaster with MH17 of Malaysia Airlines are for me most easily understood in terms of responsibility. By far number I in this case is the united states, which invested 5 billion and more in undermining the Ukraine. This was quite successful and this disaster in simply one of the results. On number 2 in my opinion we have the Ukraine government which allows planes flying in a warzone. On number 3 we have the international aviation community which does in fact the same as the Ukraine government. All the rest like blaming Putin, Russia, Strelkov and what- or whoever is just the opposite of responsible behaviour.
Kind Regards, Ben
Further down the rabbitt hole …
Picture alleged to be Buk system being transported back to Russia.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Red5_Eagle/status/490061907609399296/photo/1
Another source:
(in Ukrainina) http://www.pravda.com.ua/news/2014/07/18/7032299/
It is claimed these pictures are from Dmytrivka, near the Marinovka border checkpoint.
Twitter account of Carlos the ATC Controller in Borispol who related that MH17 was shot down by the Ukrainian military has been disabled or deleted.
https://mobile.twitter.com/spainbuca
The geographic challenges continue today. Reports are repeatedly put out of witnesses in Snizhne and Torez who say the plane that was shot down PASSED OVERHEAD and crashed BEHIND (northwest from their point of view) Progress mine, something that would be quite impossible for a plane travelling southeast over Donbass. They also continue to locate the NAF Buk System in Snizhne, such as in this video:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3WjhUAZNHBM
And this now famous photo:
http://www.veooz.com/photos/qHKtvrw.html
This Ukie propagandist site claims to have a picture of missile contrails over Snizhne and says “many” such pictures exist.
http://www.planetputin.com/tag/buk/
Of course it also claims Cossacks in Chernukino (25-30 miles from Snizhne) shot down the plane. They will have to straighten this part of the propaganda out.
Vitaly Yarema is stated to have claimed that the NAF does not have operable Buk’s.
(in Russian) http://www.pravda.com.ua/rus/news/2014/07/18/7032278/
This also fits with reports that this video shows Sergei Kurginyan promising to bring specialists to repair the disoperable Buk’s in NAF possession.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fxVZvh9YScU&feature=youtu.be
Ukrainian MOD is also claiming that plane was shot down by Russian AA defense.
http://www.theinsider.ua/politics/53c8d4209eef8/
MIA Arsehole Avakov is also helpfully reporting that a BUK was seen being taken to Russia without one missile at 4:50a.
https://mobile.twitter.com/AvakovArsen/status/490080727527337985
Of course. Everything he’s put on social media has been so truthful up until now. (/sarcasm)
Russian MOD claims Ukraine fired from one of their AA batteries around Donetsk. It seems undisputed Ukraine does have AA systems deployed in theater.
http://slon.ru/fast/russia/minoborony-rf-rasskazalo-ob-aktivnosti-ukrainskikh-zenitchikov-pri-padenii-boinga-1129893.xhtml
Let me sum up the general mood in western media – “No matter who shot the plane down, its all Russia’s fault! How dare they destabilize our Ukrainian coup!” I think that cognotive dissonance expressed repeatedly by NATO and other MIC organs is at the heart of all that is happening, along with the obvious question of “Qui bono?”.
Last point, it is now coming out that among the victims on the plane were a Senator of the Netherlands and the Grandmother of the PM of Maylasia. If so, someone is going to be hung out to dry for this, unless the plane just “exploded” like TWA800.
@ Andrew,
” Large chunks of the Boeing 777 that bore the airline’s red, white and blue markings lay strewn over one field. The cockpit and one turbine lay a kilometer (a half-mile) apart, and residents said the tail landed another 10 kilometers (six miles) away, indicating the aircraft most likely broke up before hitting the ground.” LINK.
That means we were both right [unfortunately], although my [full] high altitude integration was wrong. I try not to think on what happened inside that plane during its steep decent toward the cool, black soil…
Unfortunately I don’t have the time now to go through all the comments so I hope it hasn’t already been posted, but I found a very interesting tidbit on http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/
It mentions the fact that according to the people who were tasked with collecting the bodies from the wreckage site some of them were not “fresh” at all and were “completely bloodless”. It appears they may have been dead prior to the plane crash. Also there seems to have been large medical supplies on board.
I realize that it’s way too early to draw any conclusions and we have to take everything that hasn’t been officially confirmed with a healthy pinch of salt, but still this information just adds to my feelings of uneasiness. It all seems too convoluted and just plain weird. Nothing is the way it seems and it just stinks of false flag machinations and coverups.
My only hope is that no ceasefire or truce, even temporary, will be accepted by the Novorussians, because any Ukrainian presence at the scene of the crash – either for “assisting” or for investigative purposes – will turn out to be a complete disaster for any objective investigative efforts.
If any Ukrainian representatives are allowed too close an access, they’ll certainly launch into a full-scale cover-your-ass mode. Either that or they’ll muddy the water just enough to allow their Western masters to portray unequivocally Russia and the “terrorists” of the East as the culprits.
The twitter account of the Spanish ATC or whatever he is has been deleted, apparently by Twitter itself. Apparently he foresaw that. Now there is a guy from Slovakia who created an account where there is only two posts, the second one containing screenshots of his latest series of posts where he says the plane was shot by Kiev and everyone there (by which he includes the military who came to the control tower) knew it. This is the account of the Slovak archiver:
https://twitter.com/spainbucaARCH
There is also an interesting consideration on how to stage a provocation as shoting down a civilian airliner to blame the responability to the adversaries. In case of a high performance high altitute rocked (as the “BUK”), several people must be operatively involved (not less then 8-10) as crew in the trucks. In case of a missile fired at short distance by a fighter, only one is needed: its pilot.
@ SanctuaryOne:
This is by any means a game, this is WAR.
@The idiot thugs you condone and justify
And how many innocent civilians have the Us/Ukr idiot thugs you’re justifying killed?! Why would these innocent civilians be more important than Russian innocent civilians? Because they’re from some Western country, right?! Guess what, your lives are equally irrelevant, just like the lives of those in Iraq, Syria, Ukraine etc. War is not a game and people get hurt, life means nothing in war. We all are simply collateral damage and if you have a problem with that, then you shouldn’t support your idiot thugs, since they are the ones who are provoking wars all over the world. Besides, Russians are not responsible for this, only easily manipulated people like you could actually believe it. You’re the one who should be ashamed, since you have a brain and you’re not using it.
I think it is important to memorialize key evidence. Eyewitnesses in the Snizhne-Torez area report seeing an AN-26 shot down and pilots bailing out with parachutes. There seems to be a lot of evidence pointing towards an AN-26 with a path over Snizhne to the NW being shot down by NAF, and these reports are now being conflated with the MH17 wreck.
https://mobile.twitter.com/saysZello/status/489765645849219073
Сбили транспортник либо штурмовик ВСУ. Упал около Тореза, за шахтой 3-бис, видели парашютиста
#zellosnezhnoe
9:36am – 17 Jul 14
YANDEX: Knocked transport or attack aircraft APU. Fell about Torez, for mine 3 bis, saw a skydiver
oh my, dear russian friends, you fcked up this so well
Could someone who understands spoken Russian please listen to the conversation between the men about the passports they found at the crash site?
The passports and conversation is about time mark 2:38 in the video. WARNING: video has bodies of victims.
+18 Крушение малайзийского Boeing. Съемки с места событий 17.07.2014
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxvSGXOkz-I
Personally, I’m wondering if the passports were found together in one place, or if they were collected from many places, but there may be other things said of interest to many of us.
Thank you!
Okay, this video shows much more gruesome injuries and burns to corpses than I had previously seen, though some still look almost uninjured. I retract my previous comment on that topic. (GRAPHIC):
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=KftjrvpnrjE
A word of caution about premature conclusions?
Saker; Have you not noticed Kiev immediately gave us the ‘conclusion’
And the US then bolstered that
‘conclusion’
The fact that they have both done that certainly should tell us something?
In fact, and I posted to this affect, we have been prepped for this narrative this past week.
What should that tell us about Kiev and the US prepping us for the conclusion they are pushing?
I get your being cautious.
However, we can call the cards as they are being played
Time stamp from “conversation” was from July 16th. Story unraveling fast now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28MrASx-RiM
@ Anon 18 July, 2014 05:42
Since I watched Keiser, I never learned anything. He just always talks about some famous bankers and how stupid people are. Stacy disappoints me as she seems to be a nice person.
—————-
My most conservative fingerpointing about the guilt question:
Hopefully an investigation conducted by Maleisian, Russian and US experts will give some proof (serial numbers etc.). A team, otherwise nobody will believe its conclusions.
Now we can not be sure about this yet.
One thing we CAN be sure about:
Criminal negligence by the junta traffic control:
On june 14th a BUK battery was taken by the resistance. Even if the regime was not sure if the resistance could operate, All civilian air traffic above the east should have been diverted since that very day, as these rockets seem capable of hitting targets at 30 Km high!
” Go carefully through the latest tweets by https://twitter.com/spainbuca
He is for real, am sure of that. He is at Borispol and in contact with the military there.”
@Spainbuca is a fake. Yesterday he found himself in the middle of the storm, tons of attention from spanish journalists. A couple of them outed him as an attention seeking phony and viola, he eliminated his account, erasing all posts. RT Spanish are idiots for not checking out his credentials in over two months that they have been publishing his stuff. For me, red flags were raised when (Carlos) gave an interview to RT Spanish saying that he had to fly his family out of Kiev due to death threats. And then he went back to work at the tower in Kiev? Thats just hard to believe, as if the Ukies would allow a “traitor” tweeting from ATC , Maybe they just didn´t know who of all the Spanish ATC at Borispol was Carlos ;-) BTW some are saying that Ukraine only allows Ukie nationals to be ATC.
This is a very reasonable and helpful analysis. Thank you, Saker, both for your expertise and your commendable reserve on this issue. I certainly do not myself have the former, and I rather doubt that I have the latter to the same degree.
Hi I am Dutch. “Ik ben een Nederlander” and no I did not use google translate.
Let me give you my emotional take on this terrible event.
It doesnt matter that Dutch & Malaysian people were murdered as the Nationality should not matter.
Murder is murder and as far as I am concerned the murderous idiots in Kiev started this one.
This started when Kiev started bombing Civilians in Luhansk with their airforce.
So if Pro Russian Miliamen fired a rocket somehow that hit that airplane full of our countrymen it was because Kiev started using an air force hell bent on bombing civilians & people have a right to defend themselves.
However to Malaysian Airlines Management and any other idiots flying airplanes over war torn areas were the air forces is bombing civilians.
There is something really mentally unstable about airlines insisting on flying over war torn areas.
As a Dutch. I blame Kiev & Malaysian airlines. Ill never ever fly with that idiotic mismanaged airline again.
To me the Pro Eastern Ukrainians are simply trying to defend themselves from genocidal maniacs from Kiev.
My heart goes out to families who lost loved ones because the US wants & needs a new war.
I know that Saker suggested that we keep an open mind about this “mishap”…However, I just can’t ignore the undeniable suspiciousness of the timing and the convenience of this crash itself to suit the goals of the Kiev’s/Washington ZioNazis.
The Ukies were getting defeated loud and clear. They desperately needed something that would redirect people’s attention away from Poroshenko’s disastrous ethnic cleansing of Novorussians and the Israelis invasion of Gaza. Plus, it would allow the ukies to be resupplied and regrouped. Not to mention another “great” reason for the Washington to blame Russia for its own misdeeds. Kind of too classic, too much in the spirit of CIA/MOSSAD modus operandi.
https://twitter.com/spainbuca
It looks like it was taken down. The question is why?
@ Ben (18 July, 2014 10:57)
Agreed 100% with your view of how accountability works. Kiev also has responsibility for insisting on militarily attacking its population (including from the sky), which has required its population to defend itself with arms.
@ Anonimous Dutch
I don’t think the pilots or airline can choose their path, especially when they are flying over a country. The ATC authorities tell them what path to follow. They were instructed to go over the war zone, away from the usual path between AMS and KUL
Add the 295 dead from the plane to all the civilian death in Donbas… and Palestine, and Syria, and Iraq, and Libya, and…
Feeling heartbroken at so much needless death and destruction.
Heard a US military person talking about their assessment of the possibility of BUK use by the militia. Said the system has 3 components – launch vehicle, RADAR unit, command unit. For normal operation all three must be present but that they thought the launch vehicle could be used alone but would have very limited target acquisition capability. To be used against a target flying at 10k m it would need to be launched almost as soon as the operator could detect the plane. On the other hand it has also been suggested the operator might be able to use RADAR data generated elsewhere (by another unit for instance).
It has been claimed that many commercial airlines were using this ‘same’ route. If so there would be daily traffic of high flying jets above the conflict zone – and people firing missiles at aircraft would generally be expected to want to identify their target before firing. Somehow I am guessing that the ‘route’ being referred to includes the normal flight path to the south near Azov Sea and few if any non military planes were flying over the conflict area.
There is consensus that Ukraine is responsible to ensure safe passage through their airspace. That this flight was sent directly over the conflict area, deviating from its regular track, seems very very odd.
Andrew,
RE: reports from civilians and their videos about the AN26 shoot down. We don’t even know if the video was not from the Monday shoot down. Without timestamps on the videos, this stuff is all ambiguous.
We are looking at tree branches, clouds, smoke, angles of sun, blue versus gray skies, et al.
I said from the get go that the news coverage is weak. Valiant semi-pro level coverage that suffices to document dead bodies and building damage, but useless forensics without possession of original camera material in hand.
I’ve done film forensics in my past life in the industry and debunked famous “facts”. But you have to have “original” material in hand.
We have a woman on video talking about her son telling us there were fighters with the falling jet.
This got posted on Gleb’s authoritative site. Mistake to take this as a “source”.
Eyewitnesses are notoriously inaccurate. This is falling bodies hitting their front or back yards. They hear multiple explosions up in the sky. Was one of those an echo?
For people in such stressful situations and then an event cascading atop their heads and all around, we have to be careful of the “facts”.
I like the ballistics of the plane falling directly down when “hit”, and then calculating from “where” and, thus, “who” could have fired a missile.
But, I’m betting the militia BUK didn’t do it. Who is the expert who could run that thing? It only had its own internal radar for tracking and that is limited range.
Or, was the plane not at 30,000 feet? Was it much lower and hit by something else?
We do not have the basic facts of the flight yet.
We think we have something solid, but each point of fact is disputable. If we were sitting around a table and discussing this, each of us could dismantle the other’s case easily.
Logic is not in operation yet. Logic requires facts.
Here, we want it to be an engineered CIA job.
Elsewhere, they want Putin’s head on a platter.
I know NATO wants to get in. This event makes it easier to sell the viability of a covert version of NATO to be sent into the battlefield. I suspect some new high tech battalions to appear. We will be told they trained for months in Poland. It will be NATO expert troops in Kiev drag.
The Ukies are losing. Neo-cons and warmongers will do anything to keep Russia in deep destabilization. America loves enemies. It has its old one back. Facts don’t matter. Events do.
Escalation of warfare by Kiev is just beginning. NATO will give them heavier missiles and small bombers. Nothing is off the boards in this one.
The Hegemon only has the Ukraine and it is on the brink of collapse.
The West will manufacture whatever events it needs to turn the tide. This was the beginning.
Минобороны зафиксировало работу РЛС ЗРК Украины в день авиакатастрофы (The defense Ministry has recorded a radar operation ZRK of Ukraine on the day of the crash)
http://lifenews.ru/news/136881 (trans) http://translate.yandex.net/tr-url/ru-en.ru/lifenews.ru/news/136881
“…The press service of the defense Ministry reported that the route, which flew on 17 July Boeing 777”, as well as the place of his fall fall into the affected area of two Ukrainian batteries of anti-aircraft missile complex long-range s-200 and three batteries of anti-aircraft missile complex medium-range Buk-M1.
As noted in the Department, Russian radio devices for 17 July recorded the work of the radar station “Dome” battery Buk-M1″, stationed in the area of the settlement Style 30 km South of Donetsk.
This station is designed to provide radar information command posts of air defense formations and units of the air defense and control points of interest air defense systems, equipped Buk ‘ and ‘ tor.
The defense Ministry stressed that the technical characteristics of anti-aircraft missile complex “Buk-M1” allow the exchange of information on air for between batteries of the same division. Thus, the launch of rockets could also be carried out with all batteries stationed in the locality Avdiivka (eight kilometers North of Donetsk) or Gruzsko-Saranskoe (25 kilometers East of Donetsk).
Experts say that the aircraft at a height of 10 kilometers can be shot down by missiles launched by type complexes s-300 or “Buck”. Self-propelled anti-aircraft missile complex “Buk” is designed to hit targets at altitudes from 30 meters to 14-18 kilometers. on 16 July the armed forces of Ukraine was relocated in Donetsk region division “Buk”…
Malaysia Airlines MH17 plane crash in Ukraine LIVE UPDATES
http://rt.com/news/173628-malaysian-plane-crash-ukraine/
“13:07 GMT:
Ukraine’s traffic controllers ordered the Boeing-777 to lower by 500 meters when the aircraft entered Ukrainian airspace, says a statement on the Malaysia Airlines official website.
“MH17 filed a flight plan requesting to fly at 35,000ft (10,660 meters) throughout Ukrainian airspace. This is close to the ‘optimum’ altitude. However, an aircraft’s altitude in flight is determined by air traffic control on the ground. Upon entering Ukrainian airspace, MH17 was instructed by Ukrainian air traffic control to fly at 33,000ft (10,058 meters).”
This order to lower their altitude probably was to allow banderivtsy Buk systems a more sure chance of a hit on the airliner.
вот так
FWIW:
My best guess at this point: MA 17 was diverted 200 km south of usual flight path into a waiting SA (somethig). Flight recorders would be one source for conformation, there should be voice recordings form Kiev control to the pilot.
T1
Another video of the AN-26 being shot down yesterday. The propeller is clearly heard as well as the view of the plane dropping with the right engine on fire.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x-rbUEfNexQ
Sorry about the www’s.
Anyway, what I was trying to say about this video:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x-rbUEfNexQ
Was that it shows the AN-26 downing, and the user uploading it to YouTube has labeled it as a Boeing 777.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-18/ukraines-security-service-has-confiscated-air-traffic-control-recordings-malaysian-j?page=1
Ukraine’s Security Service Has Confiscated Air Traffic Control Recordings With Malaysian Jet
“Earlier, when we commented in the abnormality in the flight path of flight MH-17 we said that “perhaps before coming to “certain” conclusion about the involvement of this rebel or that, the key questions one should ask before casting blame, is why did the pilot divert from his usual flight plan, why did he fly above restricted airspace, and just what, if any instructions, did Kiev air control give the pilot in the minutes before the tragic explosion?” The simple answer would have come if Ukraine had merely released the Air Traffic Control recording from the tower and flight MH 17, something Malaysia did in the aftermath of the disappearance of flight MH 370, which at last check has still not been uncovered.
It now appears that answer will not be forthcoming because as the BBC reports “Ukraine’s SBU security service has confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner, a source in Kiev has told Interfax news agency.”
What happens to the recordings next is completely unknown. What is known is that any hope of getting an undoctored explanation why the plane flew as it did, or what the pilots may have seen or said in the moments before the explosion, is forever gone. “
I came across this site http://www.jimstonefreelance.com/. The writer gives an interesting theory under the headline “Selective censorship of MH17 coverage speaks volumes”
Saker, what do you think, is it a plausible theory?
Hmmm. well remember the original Trojan Horse idea….let’s say you leave a piece of sophisticated equipment a la Greeks bearing gifts and it is gleefully picked up to be used honestly in self defense, but it has been tampered with. This is an old, old one in the playbook of war. OK. The US navy shot down an Iranian civilian airplane–tragic event but according to the guys that keep statistics, this happens every 8 years or so. These are legitimate “oops”. This whole scenario may be such a human one of a mixture, of cunning, good intentions, shocked horror and cynical manipulation. Let’s keep our eye on the ball and strive for the truth. Sometimes it is a mixture of the good, the bad and mainly the ugly.(the latter is open for redemption however)
Looking at the children in the refugee camps and hearing the mothers say that the reason they left was for the future of their children, I have hope. Rt.com is doing such a good job of showing the Russian MDs and good people welcoming the refugees. They will help build themselves a decent life and a strong society. Actually, Russia is so lucky to get them. Save the Donbass children—they are priceless, worth more than gold: they are the future. And it is a future worth having.
A simple question should be asked: What Russia win knocking this aircraft??
========
Multiple versions have emerged.
1-What the advocates of New Russia.
2-What was Russia.
3-What was the occupants of the Kiev government.
It was said that the advocates of New Russia failed to gain access
the type of system capable of bringing down an aircraft at the time of flying.
Then it was said that there were two right next to military aircraft
plane that was shot down. Then it was said that the civilian aircraft was
some form of diverted air corridor for civil aviation.
It was also said that there was a parachute in the area of the wreckage of civilian aircraft.
Here I have a question from a layman interested in the subject:
Will the two Ukrainian military planes did not approach the aircraft
Marital using it as a shield to avoid anti-aircraft fire and
New Russian defenders fired the shot and fell into the error that
the Nazi was wishing??
First, tragic, and I’m very sad for the victims and their friends and families.
I’m fully in agreement with the call for not jumping to conclusions, as suspicious as it is, as unlikely as it is that either Russia or the NDF is to blame. I will say this though- if it was the rebels it was certainly an accident. If it was the Kiev freak show, it was deliberate. Reserving judgement until more info comes to light, but it’s difficult to do so. I just hope that in the end, whatever evidence comes out leads to incontrovertible conclusions.
It was less than a week ago that Ukraine government claimed that separatists had shot down an An-26 flying at 6500m. And that this was proof the separatists had been given medium SAMs.
A week hasn’t passed, separatists are, if anything, even stronger and they sent a foreign airliner through the same area. “you’ll be safe at cruise height” – the exact opposite of what THEY had claimed.
While they were doing offensive air operations in the same area.
Where they HOPING it would get shot down ?
Where they using 300 innocents as human shields for SU-25s ?
@ Anonymous 17:22
But wouldn’t those communications be recorded also in the aircraft’s “black box” ?
The latest physical evidence points to the Malaysian plane being downed by an air-to-air missile. (Probably from Ukie fighter jet.)
https://www.facebook.com/TruthfromUkraine/photos/pb.1452285018328179.-2207520000.1405709893./15
Larchmonter445,
If I’m understanding Mr. Nora correctly on this (I’m no expert; he is), when a plane gets hit, blows up or whatever, everything is going to fall, grossly, depending on the velocity of the plane when hit plus the particular direction any piece of the debris was sent by the explosion, hit, or whatever. So in that sense, I’m thinking (he’s busy right now) that anything that seemingly went straight down was actually knocked a bit backwards relative to the direction and speed the plane was flying before it got whacked.
Here you go: Ukraine general prosecutor: “Militias do not have Ukrainian air defense missile systems Buk & S-300 at their disposal”
Jul 17 2014
http://en.itar-tass.com/world/741271
Oleg Tsarev: We only had PART of the complex system, deliberately sabotaged, no electronic component, dismantled & in disrepair”.
http://kommersant.ru/doc/2529231
Also important Ukraine Ministry of Defense Press Release, Jun30
“Terrorists” did not capture BUK – only old, disabled, useless equip…
All Air Defence systems of Ukraine are in their designated areas & under Ukrainian control”
mil.gov.ua/news/2014/06/3…
#MH17