During his emergency press conference today Foreign Minister Lavrov said something to the effect that attempting to predict the future is not a helpful exercise and I will not argue with this wise man. However, Lysander did ask an interesting question today: Is it possible that a NATO air campaign might still fail in removing the government? I think that while attempting to predict the future is, indeed, a useless exercise, a few general guesses can be made based on past experience and this is what I would like to do here. For this purpose, I will use the following seven specific cases of US/NATO military attacks against sovereign countries:
- Iraq 1990-1991
- Bosnia 1992-1995
- Kosovo 1998-1999
- Afghanistan 2001
- Iraq 2003
- Lebanon 2006
- Libya 2011
Before looking into the lessons we can draw from these wars, I feel that it is important to begin by stating a few basic principles applicable to all of them.
First, wars have two dimensions: a purely military one and a political one and Clausewitz was quite correct when he said that wars are the continuation of politics by other means. Because of that, political factors always trump purely military ones. For example, in purely military terms I think that it is quite undeniable that the USSR ‘won’ the war in Afghanistan. In political terms, the USSR was humiliated and comprehensively defeated. In looking at these wars we need to keep these two level of analysis completely separate from each other or we risk confuses causes and effects.
Second, and this is crucial, we have to understand a simple fact: the United States does not negotiate with anybody except another superpower. In the seven examples above, the USA had an immense superiority in pretty much any form of power and, therefore, even though the State Department was “kinda negotiating”, what was really taking place was this: the only option given to the other side was unconditional surrender. In every case where the two local sides wanted to actually negotiate the USA sabotaged these negotiations. For the US imperial mindset, to really negotiate with a smaller party would be a humiliating admission of weakness. Keep that in mind when discussing all the seemingly endless “negotiations” which took place before each of these wars.
Third, for all the militaristic antics Americans like to engage in, the US culture is not a true warrior culture. It is a *merchant* culture. While Anglos have sometimes fought with great skills and valor, the military aspect is always subservient to the economic one in British and US history. Therefore the preferred, and most effective, weapon of the US empire is not nukes, but the sly use of the ‘almighty dollar’.
Having said that, let’s now look at a short summary of what happened in each of these wars from a military and political point of view.
IRAQ 1990-1991:
Military level: the Iraqi military was comprehensively defeated and its units either destroyed or rendered unable to function. This crushing military defeat was due to the fact that the US warfare doctrine was at least a full generation ahead of the Iraqi one
Political level: Saddam’s regime was comprehensively defeated and had to basically accept all the terms imposed upon it by the USA.
BOSNIA 1992-1995:
Military level: the Bosnian-Serbs were defeated by a skillful combination of US/NATO air operations and Croat ground offensives. The Yugoslav military provided no help, and the Bosnian-Serbs had no access to their heavy weapons stores (under UN control).
Political level: even though the Bosnian-Serbs had been betrayed by Milosevic, they still represented a big enough force to deter the US and Croats from a complete invasion of Bosnia. The Bosnian-Serbs lost all their lands in Croatia but got to keep some of it in Bosnia proper.
KOSOVO 1998-1999:
Military level: even though NATO used over 1’000 of its front-line aircraft during a 78 day long campaign, with 38’000 sorties flown and over 10’000 airstrikes, combined with numerous cruise missile attacks the Serbian Army Corps stationed in Kosovo suffered no meaningful damage at all (14 tanks, 22 APCs according to US sources).
Political level: the combination of a vicious campaign targeting the civilian population of Serbia and Montenegro and a promise made to Milosevic that he would be left in power convinced Milosevic to surrender and betray the Serbs of Kosovo (just like he betrayed the Bosnian-Serbs previously).
AFGHANISTAN 2001:
Military level: faced with a major air offensive by the US and NATO combined with a ground offensive by the Northern Alliance, the Taliban did not fight much and basically withdrew in the mountains.
Political level: while the Taliban regime was booted out of Kabul and most major cities, the US/NATO never succeeded in seizing an effective political control of the country.
IRAQ 2003:
Military level: though this is disputed, there is pretty good evidence to indicate that the Iraqi military never intended to resist the invasion and that it basically dissolved itself with the intention of morphing into an insurgency.
Political level: Saddam was captured and murdered, but the US political control over Iraq outside the Green Zone was spotty while Iran became the most influential actor in the country.
LEBANON 2006:
Military level: for Israel (acting as an agent for the USA) this war ended in a defeat even worse than the one suffered by the US/NATO in Kosovo because unlike the US/NATO which only used airpower, the Israelis also used artillery and ground forces. One of the worst military defeats in history.
Political level: a complete disaster for the US and Israel. Not a single objective declared by Netanyahu was achieved and Hezbollah came out of the war even far more powerful than before the war began.
LIBYA 2011:
Military level: a combination of US/NATO airpower and insurgents on the ground yielded a rapid and rather easy military victory over the rather clueless Libyan military.
Political level: Gaddafi is gone, but the country is in complete disarray and chaos reigns.
Now, lets summarize this all as seen from the US point of view:
Iraq 1990-1991: military victory – political victory
Bosnia 1992-1995: military victory – acceptable political outcome
Kosovo 1998-1999: military defeat – political victory
Afghanistan 2001: military victory – political defeat
Iraq 2003: military victory – political defeat
Lebanon 2006: military defeat – political defeat
Libya 2011: military victory – acceptable political outcome
So we see that the record of recent US/NATO operations is a very checkered one. Most importantly, we can draw two conclusions from the above: a) the military and political outcomes do not correlate b) the political outcome is not decided by the military outcome but by the personalties of the leaders.
If we think of Saddam Hussein, Slobodan Milosevic, Mullah Omar, Hassan Nasrallah and Muammar Gaddafi we can immediately see that Saddam Hussein and Muammar Gaddafi were absolutely incompetent but courageous leaders, Slobodan Milosevic a born traitor (what else to expect form an ex-Communist and ex-banker?) while Mullah Omar and, especially, Hassan Nasrallah were principled and determined leaders who understood that simply because the Americans want short wars this is hardly a reason to give it to them.
How does all this apply to Syria?
Well, first and foremost, there is no reason at all why the Syrian military could not adopt the same basic tactic as the one used by Hezbollah in 2006: do not present a lucrative target. This is also, by the way, the exact same tactic used by the Serbs in Kosovo, and in both of these wars it was devastatingly effective in negating the US/Israeli advantage in firepower.
Another lesson of history is that the US failed to kill Saddam Hussein, Radovan Karadzic, Slobodan Milosevic and Hassan Nasrallah even though they tried very hard. They did get Muammar Gaddafi, but only thanks to special operations forces on the ground and local insurgents. They might get lucky this time, but chances still are they they are not going to be able to murder Assad.
Again, all of the above applies only to a determined US/NATO operation including a campaign of airstrikes lasting a week or more followed by either close air support operations for the Wahabi liver-eaters or even a ground invasion. It is still possible that Obama might decide for a feel-good, symbolic, action, like Clinton’s bombing of the Al-Shifa pharmaceutical factory in Sudan but I am not holding my breath on this one.
My sense is that the Syria-Hezbollah-Iran-Russia alliance will prevail, but, unfortunately, at a great cost, just as what happened in Lebanon in 2006. As of now, I am not even sure that the Americans have a clear exit strategy other than an arrogant assumption that they, being Americans, will prevail one way or another.
The key issue will be the response by Hezbollah and Iran. If they are willing to proactively counter-attack both on the ground and in neighboring countries from which the strikes will be coming, then the situation might run out of control and frighten the Americans and the Israelis. But if Iran and Hezbollah remain passive then the insurgency will have the opportunity to use this US attack on Syria to regain much of what it lost, eventually threatening the regime.
We shall see very soon, alas.
The Saker
Thanks, Saker. Great as always.
I don’t know if the US objective is to overthrow Assad, or to give the rebels just enough breathing room to keep the fighting and destruction of Syria going on as long as possible.
But I suspect they will have to try to overthrow the government or they will loose that most valuable commodity “credibility” or the means to intimidate others. You can’t have an empire without it.
I imagine the US will want to do this as cheaply as possible, so they will start off a few crusie missile strikes in the hopes that the Army will desert and fall apart. If that doesn’t work, there will be pressure to move on to periodic bombing, then to a no fly zone, followed by a no go zone.
I wonder, though, how the US might react to the loss of a few aircraft. Or, while I understand it’s very unlikely, to the sinking of a ship. Is it is Syria’s interests to quietly grin and bear it, or should they try their best to do as much damage as they can.
Because I’m afraid the US will always pretend that the last set of bombing will be the end of it if Syria only sits tight. Then another set that degrades their capability a bit more…but sit tight and that will be all. Untill finally all of Syria’s assets are gone and the US will attack with everything once they know the victim is totally helpless.
It may very well be in Syria’s interests to fire all they have while they still have it and hope that Arab public opinion will finally see what is happening. The costs would be very harsh, but perhaps no worse than the inevitable death by a thousand cuts.
As an Orthodox Christian Slav, I’m really disappointed that you haven’t mentioned Macedonia in your analysis.
See, what’s happening in Syria has many similarities to what happened in Macedonia during 2001…
The Americans have sponsored the Muslim Albanians here, as they have previously in Kosovo. They even brought Islamic Mujahedin fighters from the Mideast to help them as well. Many Orthodox Churches were torched, and none of it appeared on any of the international news outlets… Atrocities have happened, and yet, the Americans have shielded the Albanians guilty for it from persecution in the Hague! The propaganda war was at full swing… CNN only reported about ‘the rebels’ being successful and how Albanian civilians were under attack. There was NO MENTION of the Macedonians being brutally murdered and their bodies desecrated…
Afterwards, the American have used their many NGOs here to justify it all, and now we’re a candidate for EU and NATO membership. Our soldiers are fighting in Afghanistan and were until recently in Iraq… Same thing is in the works for Syria I think.
@Anoymous:As an Orthodox Christian Slav, I’m really disappointed that you haven’t mentioned Macedonia in your analysis.
I am sorry to disappoint you. I was not making an inventory of all ugly stuff the Americans and their Albanian puppets did. I was only looking at those cases in which a significant amount of military force was used. While the US did subvert Macedonia and while the Albanians did commit many acts of terrorism, Macedonia was not invaded by the US military and this is why I did not include this example.
I would, however, add that the Macedonians brought a lot of that upon themselves by splitting away from the rest of Yugoslavia. If the Serbs and Macedonians had stayed together the Albanians would not have had the option to attack them one by one. Same problem with Montenegro. If Orthodox Christians Slavs had remained united they would not have offered such an easy target to the Empire. Alas, afters years of communist and capitalist propaganda it was very easy for the Empire to turn all the Yugoslavs against each other and then conquer them one by one.
I will say that pan-Slavism was always a misguided idea from its inception in the 19th century, but in the case of Yugoslavia a short look at history and basic common sense should have convinced *all* the peoples of Yugoslavia that sticking together was by far the best option for them all. Alas, the US Empire skillfully fed the ugly flames of bigotry and nationalism and a beautiful and diverse country was turned into a mass of small warring states all under US Imperial control.
Yes, the US played a key role in all that. But the primary responsibility falls upon, I strongly believe, those who let themselves be conned even though all this was *SO* predictable…
The Saker
@Anonymous: this discussion reminds me of a conversation I had with a Greek officer in the early 1990s. He told me that all this nationalism in Yugoslavia would have disastrous consequences for the entire region and he added: what Greece and Yugoslavia should do is join forces to prevent the entire region from blowing up. I also remember the graffiti on the walls in Greece “Serbia and Greece – Union!” (something like “Servia Hellas zummakhia” – or something similar – if I remember correctly).
Anyway, to resit and empire like the US Empire, the people should unite not only within their ethnicity or religion, but ACROSS such more or less artificial lines and join forces against a common enemy. Instead what happened was what was called “the parade of sovereignties” in the former Soviet Union. And who suffered the most from that? Those who separated themselves from the bigger, central republic/nation/group. In comparison, Russia and Serbia fared *much* better because they preserved their multi-ethnic, multi-national and multi-confessional nature.
Nationalism sucks. Always.
The Saker
Thanks for the time Saker,
So, since we’re discussing American invasion/intervention (this vis-a-vis Syria) do you think they’ll actually occupy Syrian territory? Boots on the ground – the works?! As they did in the cases you’ve mentioned?
And, how do you reckon Macedonians brought it upon themselves?! Since you don’t seem to be familiar with Macedonian history of the 19/20th century – did you know that many Macedonians were killed by the Serbian Empire, because they felt they were of different ethnicity to that of the Serbs?! Have you the idea that the Serbian Cyrillic is different than the Macedonian one? The language also (you see it’s much closer to Russian and Bulgarian, while Serbian is same as Croatian almost)? And was banned (alphabet and language) because of it during the Serb occupation?! And we’re talking the country (well “territory”, if you don’t believe my right to ethnicity) where the Cyrillic alphabet was first invented, you know.
…but enough of history, when the present is more pressing…
I have to admit – you’re right. As much as it pains me, I must confess – it’s TRUE, it’s very easy to play divide and conquer with the Slavic population…did you know that Serbs much prefer the Greeks, and consider them allies (brothers even) than Macedonians or Bulgarians (and the Bulgarians have two new gods called ‘the EU’ and ‘NATO’)? All this while both of them know how Greeks and Anglos feel of Slavs! Who do you think entered this maxim in Serb/Bulgarian mentality?!
You’re right on another point, if we weren’t so easy to divide, there’d never be a chance for the Anglos (but the French and others also) to play with us as they do. And I’m counting ALL Slavic nations here… See, as much as you detest the Pan-Slavic idea, it is one of great significance. Slavic people ARE in fact different to others (all you need to do is read Dostoyevsky, he pretty much summons it in ‘The Gambler’).
So, since we’re both saying the same thing (pretty much), but we’re also saying that each one of us is right (now please tell me that Slavic people are not of the same mentality!) we’d have to agree to disagree upon something that we agree upon.
Seems un-logical?
It’s the Slavic way!
@SAker
Seems we both typed at the same time…
Some of your points in the second post I’ve answered unintentionally…
:)
Others…well..Serbia lost not only much of its territory, but the one and only Kosovo, which to them is like Russia losing both Moscow and Kiev (second one is lost now, because of reasons I’ve mentioned in my previous post).
And from private conversations with people I trust (most of them Greek monks from the Holy mountain – Athos) – I know Greeks truly detest Slavs. Perhaps it’s because of us Macedonians, perhaps it’s something else, but they hate us. So as good as it sounds, a union with peoples that one side hates…is one that would not stand…
As much as I like it myself…it seems a utopia more than anything else.
Sorry to say.
@Anonymous: did you know that many Macedonians were killed by the Serbian Empire, because they felt they were of different ethnicity to that of the Serbs?! Have you the idea that the Serbian Cyrillic is different than the Macedonian one? The language also (you see it’s much closer to Russian and Bulgarian, while Serbian is same as Croatian almost)? And was banned (alphabet and language) because of it during the Serb occupation?!
Yes. And Croats murdered Serbs, who murdered Croats, who murdered Bosnian-Muslims, who murdered Serbs and Croats, who both murdered them, etc. etc. etc. The thing is this: its all true. But letting the US Empire use that to divide and conquer is NOT the right solution. The right solution is make peace with your neighbor and stand together against a common foe.
you don’t believe my right to ethnicity
I very much believe in your right to ethnicity. I just don’t believe that ethnic differences or even religious are more important than that which unites those who have been neighbors for centuries.
Bulgarians have two new gods called ‘the EU’ and ‘NATO’
Yes, I am aware of that. That is a disgrace for the entire Bulgarian nation.
as much as you detest the Pan-Slavic idea
I don’t detest it, I find it deeply flawed. You tell me, an ethnic Russian and an Orthodox Christian, that a Papist Pole is somehow my friend while a Muslim Kazakh is not? I feel the EXACT opposite: Kazakhs are my kin, they are much closer to my culture and history than even Ukrainians. I also reject the idea that Russia has to somehow defend the Slavs. We did it for Bulgaria and what did we get in return? You said it yourself, they have two gods now – the EU and NATO. Like the Ukrainians, by the way. I say screw them. Let Russia built a Eurasian Union with our real brothers – the Kazakhs and the Belarussians, and dump any theory based on nationalism or religious conflict. With time, even Russians and Chechens are learning to live together again, why is that not a possibility for the people of the former Yugoslavia? For all the horrors which happened there, modern Yugoslavia was about to become a rich, diverse and prosperous country. Its the frigging nationalists which destroyed it all or, even more accurately, its the frigging MOBSTERS (from ALL ethic and religious groups) which impersonated nationalists to suck all the wealth from Yugoslavia which, with US help, turned all these newborn ‘countries’ into small warring and mutually hating fiefdoms.
We can agree to disagree, but I will always weep in deep sorrow for the destruction of Yugoslavia by local mobsters, religious fanatics and CIA agents.
@Anonymous: one more thing: in 1973 my favorite Russian author Alexander Solzhenitsyn wrote an absolutely amazing article entitled “REPENTANCE AND SELF-LIMITATION IN THE LIFE OF NATIONS”. You can find excepts in English here: http://my.ilstu.edu/~jguegu/ALEKSANDRSOLZHENITSYN.pdf and the full thing in Russian here: http://www.vehi.net/samizdat/izpodglyb/05.html). Repentance and self-limitation indeed! When is the last time any of us (I speak about nations, ethnicities, religious groups) as tried to ask for forgiveness from our enemy? When is the last time we made our OWN inventory instead of pointing fingers at all others. Is it not a disgrace that we, Orthodox Christians, act exactly as the most arrogant of pagans and keep millenia old list of all the wrongs done to us while suffering form a strange kind of amnesia for all the wrongs WE might have done to others.
While I strongly believe that our religion is true, I do not believe that it makes us any better than the rest of mankind. And if we, humans, are all equally sinners, then should it not be our obligation to ask for forgiveness *first*? How many cultures, religions or ethnicities do you think are out there who would not give pause and reconsider their own grievances towards us if WE began by sincerely ask them to forgive us?
You, as Macedonians, will have to live together with Serbs, Albanians and Greeks. That is a fact that nobody can change. This being so, I think that you would be far better off living with them together and united against imperialists than on your own.
My 2cts :-)
Privet!
The Saker
Yes. And Croats murdered Serbs, who murdered Croats, who murdered Bosnian-Muslims, who murdered Serbs and Croats, who both murdered them, etc. etc. etc. The thing is this: its all true. But letting the US Empire use that to divide and conquer is NOT the right solution. The right solution is make peace with your neighbor and stand together against a common foe.
True. No argument here, I’ve pretty much stated the same…One can say, you’re preaching to the choir here.
I very much believe in your right to ethnicity. I just don’t believe that ethnic differences or even religious are more important than that which unites those who have been neighbors for centuries.
That’s exactly the point I’m trying to make…
I don’t detest it, I find it deeply flawed. You tell me, an ethnic Russian and an Orthodox Christian, that a Papist Pole is somehow my friend while a Muslim Kazakh is not? I feel the EXACT opposite: Kazakhs are my kin, they are much closer to my culture and history than even Ukrainians
That’s exactly what I thought, and what I find truly saddening. Truly saddening. If only we can get our priorities straight…
You see, no matter of individual opinion(s) and action(s), I will ALWAYS find Russians, Bulgarians, Serbs, Ukrainians (but also ALL Slavs) brothers. No matter how many disappointments from their leaders (and even from some/often many individuals) I suffer, I refuse to associate those with the idea that ‘the always helping Anglos hand dividing us all’ is better…
We can agree to disagree, but I will always weep in deep sorrow for the destruction of Yugoslavia by local mobsters, religious fanatics and CIA agents.
Again, you’re preaching to the choir here Saker…though you’ve mentioned the first problem last if you ask me…
Saker, we’re on the same page.
And we share most of our beliefs.
Although Solzhenitsyn is my second favorite (next to Dostoyevsky) Russian author (and I’ve read and re-read) all of his works, we agree on ideas, it seems…
Nevermind, tonight I’ll be praying for the people of Syria (no matter if Православни, Униjати, Sunni or Shia) all of them deserve a better life. One where others don’t have a say how they live it. Sadly it seems to be a utopia at present…
@Anonymous: tonight I’ll be praying for the people of Syria (no matter if Православни, Униjати, Sunni or Shia) all of them deserve a better life. One where others don’t have a say how they live it. Sadly it seems to be a utopia at present…
Yes. And what especially breaks my heart is that not only did the Muslim world totally buy into the US propaganda about Yugoslavia where 99.999% of Muslims side with the Bosnian-Muslims and Kosovo Albanians, but they then ended up being victims of *exactly* the same scheme as the peoples of Yugoslavia.
Will we ever learn from these disasters?!
When will the Empire’s victims ever unite?!
@Saker
Will we ever learn from these disasters?!
When will the Empire’s victims ever unite?!
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
@anonymous: I want to add this though: I strongly believe that ethnic/national categories are fundamentally non-Christian. Christ Himself tackled this question very directly when he was asked by an Jewish “expert of the law” who the neighbor was in the commandment “Love your neighbor as yourself”. In the Parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:25-37) Christ clearly and unambiguously rejects the ethnic definition and tells the expert of the law to live like the Samaritan in the parable.
You write I will ALWAYS find Russians, Bulgarians, Serbs, Ukrainians (but also ALL Slavs) brothers
What about the Croat Ustasha or the Polish Jesuits? They are also Slavs, no?
For me my brother is anybody who seeks the truth above all. It is also any person who decides to serve God as best he can. I have no other loyalty at all but to God, this is why I like the name Hezbollah so much – Party of God – a wonderful goal. Conversely, all the ideologies opposed to God are, in parallel to Hezbollah, what I would call “Hizb Shaitan” – the party of the Devil. And each of us, every human, can choose to live his life in obedience to, and quest for, God or in self-worship and indifference to the truth (typical of a servant of the Devil).
There is nothing wrong in recognizing ethnicity, quite the opposite in fact. Each culture, no matter how small, is like a precious bead on the necklace of human diversity and it is natural to feel most comfortable with the cultures which are most similar to our own. But eventually, just like a caterpillar turns into a butterfly, so must we, Christians, shed the ‘old man’ and become a ‘new man’ ‘clothed in Christ’ (Gal 3:27) with a radically new and different concept of brotherhood: in Adam (all of mankind) and in Christ (those Christian with whom we jointly partake of the Mysteries). At which point ethnic or national considerations really lose any meaning other than a superficial recognition of the diverse world out there.
This is why even though I am most definitely a Russian by culture I will always feel much MUCH closer to a Muslim or Hindu seeking God and the Truth with all his heart than with millions of modern Russians who don’t give a damn about anything other than money, sex, power and whose life is essentially a neverending and usually vulgar self-worship ceremony.
Show me a man who loves God and the Truth above all else and I will show you my brother. His ethnicity is 100% immaterial to this, at least for me.
Cheers,
The Saker
What about the Croat Ustasha or the Polish Jesuits? They are also Slavs, no?
I thought I already answered that: I consider those my brother also. My actual brother by birth is what I consider a confused man, indoctrinated with the ‘new age philosophy’, and as much as it pains me – that doesn’t make him less of a brother to me, does it?
I strongly believe that ethnic/national categories are fundamentally non-Christian.
I reckon you’re not the first to fell in such a way…Phyletism is the name of an ecclesiological heresy, and a Church council in 1872 officially defined and condemned this heresy (still very much alive and strong in the Orthodox Church(es) I’m sorry to say). So please don’t feel that I’m some ignorant person blinded by Pan-Slavisam or ethnophiletism. Though I feel we’re very much the same, I’m much more comfortable with my Palestinian friend yearning for freedom, or (especially) my Romanian Orthodox Christian friends who’re true believers, than I am with my neighbors (who are nominally Orthodox Christian Macedonians). Still that doesn’t change the fact that we (Slavs) almost always react in the same (stupid!) manner (which always pisses me off, as I’m sorry to say)…be we Croats, Macedonians, Russians or Polish…
The rest of your post is really hard to disagree with, so I’ll just say I’m glad you feel this way.
Cheers
@Anonymous: My actual brother by birth is what I consider a confused man, indoctrinated with the ‘new age philosophy’, and as much as it pains me – that doesn’t make him less of a brother to me, does it?
True. But you have a common father. I say ALL humans have a common father in Adam, and Orthodox Christians have a common Father in Christ, but what common father do Slavs have?
Phyletism is the name.. Ok, I see that you know that topic better than I had assumed. Sorry for my mistaken assumption!
don’t feel that I’m some ignorant person blinded by Pan-Slavisam
No, I don’t. But can you believe that I was actually accused of Pan-Slavism by a very educated (but also highly ideological) Muslim very recently? Of course, he understood exactly nothing of where I was coming from, and I will not make the same mistake with you…
I’m much more comfortable with my Palestinian friend yearning for freedom, or (especially) my Romanian Orthodox Christian friends who’re true believers, than I am with my neighbors (who are nominally Orthodox Christian Macedonians)
Well, Romanians are not really Slavs, but I get your point. I feel likewise.
NOW I HAVE MANAGED TO SOMEHOW DELETE ONE OF YOUR COMMENTS BY MISTAKE (OR IT IS A BLOGGER BUG). SO I REPOST IT HERE. YOU WROTE:
——-
@SAker
Seems we both typed at the same time…
Some of your points in the second post I’ve answered unintentionally…
:)
Others…well..Serbia lost not only much of its territory, but the one and only Kosovo, which to them is like Russia losing both Moscow and Kiev (second one is lost now, because of reasons I’ve mentioned in my previous post).
And from private conversations with people I trust (most of them Greek monks from the Holy mountain – Athos) – I know Greeks truly detest Slavs. Perhaps it’s because of us Macedonians, perhaps it’s something else, but they hate us. So as good as it sounds, a union with peoples that one side hates…is one that would not stand…
As much as I like it myself…it seems a utopia more than anything else.
Sorry to say.
——-
@Anonymous: all I can say to that is that I, a Russian, have found a refuge in a traditionalist branch of the Greek Orthodox Church were all I was shown is love, understanding and full support for my cultural roots. So I guess this really depends on whom you talk to. I spend most of my summers in Greece as a kid and teenager and the clumsy words “ego rossos kai orthodoxos” always were met with kindness and extreme hospitality. True, this was in the country side on small Greek islands, I am not sure that this is true for big cities.
I congratulate you in advance with the Feast of the Dormition of the Most Holy Theotokos tomorrow. May this be a peaceful and joyful day for you!
The Saker
@Anonymous: one more thing (-: I see to do a lot of these today :-)
Of all the peoples of the former Russian Empire and later the Soviet Union, nobody did more to oppose the dissolution of this multi-cultural entity into 15 orphaned nations than the Kazakhs. When in 1990 an assembly of all the officers of the Soviet Armed Forces was convened in Moscow, do you know which politician got their trust and support? Nazarbaev!
Though (most) Russians look differently from (most) Kazakhs, the two nations have so much in common that it becomes rapidly hard to tell us apart. My family and I lived for years in close friendship with a Kazakh family and we really lived “as one”. We drank “kumys” (fermented mare’s milk) together and ate “beshparmak” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Be%C5%9Fbarmaq) and we laughed that our ancestors probably used to eviscerate each other. And yet, through these past battles, we now share a common heritage, a common history, we share the steppe, and we share a common ethos which even the Soviet and US propaganda did not succeed in destroying. We often inter-marry, and we feel comfortable with this ethnic mix. And yet, at the same time, Kazakhs also have their unique non-Russian cultural features such as a totally different language and a different religion (most religious Kazakhs are Muslims). Yet we are far, FAR, closer to each other than the Russians to the Poles or the Kazakhs to the Chinese (common border notwithstanding).
So forgive me, but I really and honestly do not understand the “Slav” category.