By: Jeff J. Brown for The Saker Blog
Crosslinked with:
Pictured above: no wonder Chinese and Westerners don’t understand each other. They look at the world and their societies with diametrically opposed points of view. It’s like two peoples staring at each other through the opposite ends of a telescope. Everything is distorted. To paraphrase the great American poet Robert Frost, “And that my friends, makes all the difference”.
Note before starting: if you have not already done so, reading/listening to/watching my two recent posts comparing Chinese and Western governance will make this one much more meaningful (https://chinarising.puntopress.com/2019/07/30/why-are-western-leaders-gawd-awful-bad-and-chinas-so-darn-competent-part-i-china-rising-radio-sinoland-190730/ and https://chinarising.puntopress.com/2019/08/07/why-are-western-leaders-gawd-awful-bad-and-chinas-so-darn-competent%ef%bc%9fpart-ii-china-rising-radio-sinoland-190807/).
Westerners can live and work in China for years and not see the obvious. I should know, since I was one of them. We occidentals are so brainwashed from birth, at home, in school, by government, media and advertising of our moral superiority over all those “other” dark skinned kinda-sorta people, that it’s easy to not see the trees in the proverbial forest of life. This is how I was, when living here from 1990-1997. Even after living and working for 21 years outside the US, mostly in Africa, Middle East and China, I was still blinded by my racism of Western cultural and moral superiority, a liberaloid do-gooder, wrapped up in identity politics, thinking I was better than most of my less cosmopolitan countrymen – sad to say – and I wasn’t much better. It was not until we came back to China in 2010 that the scales of racism finally fell from my eyes. This painful and humbling, but ultimately liberating experience is tracked through the three books of The China Trilogy (see below).
Looking at the above comparative chart and going back to the times of the Ancient Greeks, the quintessential Marlboro Man has been the fixture of Western civilization. Me, myself and I, free and unfettered, independent and on one’s own, to decide one’s destiny. Being an adventurer and warrior/gunslinger also fits the bill. Greek tales like Jason and the Argonauts, Iliad and the Odyssey and the swashbuckling myths of the deities slaughtering monsters (today’s inferior Dreaded Others) all extol the virtues of Solo Man.
Family comes next and even that is often contested and dysfunctional in the West. Help out a family member? Maybe, maybe not. It seems like every Western family I’ve ever gotten to know well, starting with mine, is rife with communication and contact between members cut off. Individual peeves and grudges trump trying to keep the family intact.
Working our way down this civilizational hierarchy, support for the neighborhood, city, province and country can happen, but frequently on “my terms” and “not in my backyard”. How dare you encroach on my freedoms! This, while citizens can be easily brainwashed with God and the flag, to fight in endless wars for rape, resources and plunder, with the price over the long term eventually being societal collapse.
For millennia, at the bottom of the Western shit heap is the government and leaders. You can’t blame Euranglolanders for not trusting or respecting their governments, since they usually act like gangsters stealing from the 99%, while sending the latter to die likes dogs in wars of expansion, exploitation and extraction, all to enrich their elite 1% masters. Organized criminals posing as leaders and governments masking cartels is standard operating procedure. It’s happening while I write.
Yet, in spite of all the pitfalls, it’s easy to see why the Western hierarchy of Solo Man is so intoxicating and flattering. What could be more important than… ME! One’s horizon in life is simplified. Me, myself and I concentrate the need and take complexity and nuance out of the equation. Life become linear, point A to point B. I’ll do whatever the hell I want, Bubba. Get back Jojo, it’s my space. Get outta of my way, this is MY lane! A friend in need is fucked indeed. What’s in it for me? The world is my oyster. Of course, I should be able wear a gun around town to protect myself. I’ve got individual rights. Ayn Rand’s “rational self-interest”. Gordon Gekko’s greed is not just good, greed is God. What’s mine is mine and what’s yours in mine, so you’re screwed. Might and treachery make right. Finders keepers losers weepers. Laissez-faire, bay-bee. Dog eat dog, the big dominate the little, the rich steal from the poor. Being entertained and amused becomes paramount. Mass production and super-consumption are in. More, more, more. Making personal sacrifices is decidedly uncool, as is delayed gratification. It is easy to see why the Western paradigm of Marlboro Man dovetails so perfectly with capitalism, neoliberalism and colonialism.
Now, in China, flip the West’s social hierarchy upside down. Suddenly, you are no longer Mr. and Mrs. Me. Welcome to being at the very bottom of civilization’s needs. Look up and your life is no longer simple and linear, but complex and elliptical – a tapestry of interconnections and expectations. Just in the family alone, Mom’s, Dad’s and Grandparents’ needs trump yours. Older relatives too. What’s mine is also my family’s. If you slack off, then how is the family supposed to help take care of the neighborhood? We all want to live in a nice town/city, don’t we, and you’re the start. Daily life becomes very intricate, cyclical and circular, giving and taking. This is not my lane, but everyone else’s too. Since life is so interwoven and interdependent, solidarity in helping others becomes the ideal. Suddenly, social harmony and peaceful coexistence are everything. You mean I have to share? I have many responsibilities to my community and country? You mean I should help the government and our leaders to work effectively, and keep the nation intact and prosperous? You bet your stinky tofu, you do.
It’s easy to see that being a Chinese citizen is a much bigger daily responsibility and the expectations of the many over the wants of the individual are so much greater than in Western civilization. Euranglolanders often feel superior over Chinese families, when they see young children here being loud, boisterous and spoiled rotten. They are for a few years. It’s the one time in their lives when they get to enjoy some of that Solo Man Me, Myself and I, because by the time they get first grade in school, China’s civilizational hierarchy starts to kick in and the expectations of everyone around them begin to weigh on their societal shoulders. For five or six years, they get to run wild a little bit, now it’s time to knuckle down and take their place on the bottom rung of the ladder.
Since you are on the hook for family, the country’s leaders and government, attributes like frugality and delayed gratification become the ideal. No wonder the Chinese have the highest savings rate of any large economy in the world. Even though buying personal gizmos and luxuries has never been higher, and Baba Beijing is exhorting the masses to consume more, to counteract the US’s tariff trade war, China’s savings rate is still 46% (https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/china/gross-savings-rate). This compares to Americans’ 17% (https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/united-states/gross-savings-rate).
All in the family. Since everybody collectively is more important than you, is it any wonder that China is a communist-socialist civilization and always has been?
It goes without saying that the two above portrayed hierarchies are meant to be painted black and white, to show the overarching contrast. Of course, there are generous, giving Westerners who believe in social solidarity and economic justice. As well, there are Chinese who are selfish, greedy and heartless. Yes, there are family feuds and estranged relatives. That’s not the point. The point is the diametrically opposed societal expectations and ideals that are held up for inspiration and guidance. In the West, it’s all about individualism and personal freedom. In China, it’s all about Mom, Dad, the mayor, governor, prime minister and president who come first.
And that, my friends, makes all the difference. The imperial West shattered China’s civilizational hierarchy for 110 years, when it flooded the country with opium, morphine and heroin, 1839-1949, and was able to rape and plunder the people with lustful abandon. Since communist liberation in 1949, China’s social hierarchy has been restored. Look at the comparative table at the beginning of this article one more time and ask yourself, Which country is going to succeed and prosper on the world stage, into the 22nd century?
I’ll give you three guesses and the first two don’t count.
Key words:
China, Racism, Culture, Ancient Greece, Marlboro Man, Individualism, Solidarity, Brainwash, Me Myself and I, 99%, 1%, Eurangloland, War, Ayn Rand, Gordon Gekko
*
Bio: Jeff J. Brown is a geopolitical analyst, journalist, lecturer and the author of The China Trilogy. It consists of 44 Days Backpacking in China – The Middle Kingdom in the 21st Century, with the United States, Europe and the Fate of the World in Its Looking Glass (2013); Punto Press released China Rising – Capitalist Roads, Socialist Destinations (2016); and for Badak Merah, Jeff authored China Is Communist, Dammit! – Dawn of the Red Dynasty (2017). As well, he published a textbook, Doctor WriteRead’s Treasure Trove to Great English (2015). Jeff is a Senior Editor & China Correspondent for The Greanville Post, where he keeps a column, Dispatch from Beijing and is a Global Opinion Leader at 21st Century. He also writes a column for The Saker, called the Moscow-Beijing Express. Jeff writes, interviews and podcasts on his own program, China Rising Radio Sinoland, which is also available on YouTube, SoundCloud, Stitcher Radio, iTunes, Ivoox and RUvid. Guests have included Ramsey Clark, James Bradley, Moti Nissani, Godfree Roberts, Hiroyuki Hamada, The Saker, and many others.
Jeff can be reached at China Rising, jeff@brownlanglois.com, Facebook, Twitter, Wechat (Jeff_Brown-44_Days) and Whatsapp: +86-13823544196.
*
Creative Commons: This article by Jeff J. Brown is available for re-publication free of charge under Creative Commons. It may be translated into any language and republished anywhere in the world. Editing is permitted of the article(s). You may edit my article(s) and bio to correct spelling, grammar, word usage and any misstatement of facts.
You may change any wording that may be culturally offensive or inappropriate to the reading audience. You may change the title of my article(s) and you may edit them to fit the desired space and word length preferred by your publication.
If you edit and publish my article(s) the only request is that the intended meaning in my article(s) not be changed or taken out of context. You may use the suggested graphics, which to the best of my knowledge are available free under Creative Commons, but I cannot guarantee that they may be used without the permission of their creator and/or owner. You may select your own choice of graphics, pictures and /and or videos (or none) that complement the intended meaning of my article. Please share and distribute this article widely. My contact email is jeff@brownlanglois.com.
Just diverting to the current Hong Kong issue, why in heaven’s name did Deng Xiaoping agree to the one country two systems formula when China took back the city? Wasn’t it obvious even back then that it was destined to fail considering China’s enrmies never sleep. Its clear that this compromise has now smacked China in the face. They should drop this approach immediately and only then will it truly be one country. A single country should only have a single system. Time for Russia and China to stop compromising with the West. The West is not your partner and stop calling them that – whether its meant genuinely or sarcastically.
He had no choice. In order to take back the HK from the English Royals, he had to pay this price. I can not say what he was thinking, but to me it’s obvious. Take the HK now, and with time we will overcome the obstacles and win. And China will win this contest, no matter how hard the West is trying. Oh yes, when the West agreed to that, it in it’s stupidity was hoping that it’s “Trojan Horse” will help them destroy China.
It won’t happen. Chinese have been long enough to let them think that time is on their side, and I believe it is.
Forum Moderator wants to reply: Wrong! They are already defeated. The issue is no longer their defeat, rather how to prevent a nuke war. However, two weeks ago, that cat ran out of the bag.
Well this is what you think. I said what I thought and time will tell who is right.
No Sir. I don’t state my opinions. Simply facts from people on the ground that are far more knowledgeable than I.
Paul; Your comment is intriguing. I like your objection to calling the American power projection an “Empire.” You refer to it as not really and empire, but a mafia. On reflexion I think your definition is in fact more technically precise. Please do comment on what you mean by saying that two weeks ago that cat (preventing a nuclear war) got out of the bag. Are you referring to the breaking of treaties?
I hope you’re right Anonius. If Russia and China are dismembered then all hope is lost.
The confrontation with the racist and supremacist psychopaths of the West was always inevitable, but better now than twenty or thirty years ago. One reason for the frantic upbeat in Western hatred and hate-propaganda by the fakestream presstitutes now is that the eclipse of the West is now inevitable and imminent, and the racist thugs who rule the West will do anything, including war, which is inevitable, to destroy the rising power, which is not ‘Western’, not ‘Judeo-Christian’ and not ‘White’, all requirements of God Himself for a global hegemon. ‘Mere Asiatics’ (there are many less savoury epithets)cannot be allowed to order White Men about, or even more to the point, refuse to follow the White Man’s orders.
Mulga – I have been interested to note that the mythologist Joseph Campbell validates your point of view about the “god” game, that the West is running. He asserts that “when a “god” attempts to live past its appointed cosmic time it turns into a devil. Or anti-god.” God turns into its dialectical opposite so to speak. This is so true and visible in the mad antics of those who try to uphold the obsolete value structure of the patriarchal god of the West. The traditional view of the “god” upheld by its priesthood out of time now becomes a Satan force that stands against the newly evolving integrity of life. Here is the sick fuel of the Anglo-Zionists priests of an obsolete and now dead religious point of view. All very esoteric I realize, however it psychologically fuels the demonic lusts of the priests of the western power structure who are driven by a now demonic need to uphold the traditional power prerogatives of the West’s traditional god game. Israel and the patriarchal overlords of the West are so trapped in the traditional god game, they can’t give up its power drive. An anti-god, to use Joseph Campbell’s terms, serves to call out the response (religiously unrecognized) of the real now emerging cosmic integrity. I see you as reading this very clearly in human terms. This site is populated by excellent people who are wrestling with all of this. Struggling together to open to a richer union of spirituality and politics. Make any sense to you?
We had a stark and wretched illustration of that principle yesterday. The head honcho of our local Federal regime, Morrison, in my opinion a really nasty piece of work, attended the Pacific Island Leaders’ Meeting in Tuvalu, where the locals and the inhabitants of the other low-lying Pacific atoll states are growing frantic as the threat of inundation by rising sea-levels becomes reality.
They have been begging us, as the bully-boy in chief in the region, the USA’s ‘deputy sheriff’ as our former thug PM Howard put it as he happily joined in the Iraq aggression and genocide, to do something about climate destabilisation, specifically our dependence on hydro-carbon exports. And, during a long and fraught meeting, with leaders reduced to tears, Morrison told them to eff off and die, more or less.
There are other dimensions to this moral and spiritual fiasco as well. We have been screeching our outrage lately that these states have dared to enter beneficial commercial relations with China. The gibbering, hissing and spitting in outrage by the political bedlam and the media sewer has overflowed with racist and colonialist rage, but that’s Western Moral Values for you. One psychopath in the Navy (Our Armed Forces are beginning to show the effects of decades of total subservience to the USA, I fear, and have lost their marbles)opined that the Evil Chinese would ‘take over’ Pacific Islands abandoned due to rising sea-levels, to turn them into ‘bases’. There are quite a few dimensions of lunacy in that fantasy.
Our Deputy PM, like the PM some sort of ‘Christian’ thug, opined at a meeting that the Pacific Islanders would survive because they come to Australia to ‘pick our fruit’, and besides, we give them $500 million, so they should just be grateful. The PM, itself, is a Pentecostal, like Bolsonaro, and, despite his lack of traditional ‘Christian values’ like charity, forebearance, doing to others as one would have done to yourself, forgiveness etc, no-one ever dares question the authenticity of his ‘faith’. A ‘Christian’ acting like a Gadarene thug-it sure looks like Campbell’s thesis. Morrison, Pompeo, Bolsonaro, Pence, all little imps itching to destroy-in ‘God’s’ name of course. The old thesis that ‘Man created God in his image’ has never seemed more cogent.
An apt illustration indeed Mulga. Forgive me if I say that sometimes Australian males make Americans look good by comparison. At least the Yanks have a positive mythology about themselves, no matter how much their egos distort it. It gives them a buoyancy that the British Australians have none of. The point that shines out to me in your disgusting tale is just how much this dead old patriarchal God image is a factor driven by the ego-mind’s power drive. According to my research the patriarchal god of historically known imagery was a major religious driving factor in the original construction of the Western mental-ego. Therefore it is no surprise to find its priests falling back on their dead god-image as some sort of religious justification for what is now no more than a mental-ego’s lust for personal power. In their minds they equate their own lust for power with their god-image and get all so enthusiastically self righteous about it. That is their imprisonment. The Jewish right wing is even more deeply lost in this, as you so well document. They are trapped in an exclusively “mental” understanding of religion, and strive, as always to celebrate that exclusivity, as a power trip on high overlording all mortals.
Insane priests of a dead god image. So with this formula the western ego-mind objectively forms itself collectively into a Satanic force. See the connection?
How many times in the past the West tried to dismember Russia and China, to no avail? What makes you think that it will be able now when actually Russia and China are stronger than ever?
Different views on Hierarchy is one way of explaining the differences.
A better way of understanding might be the Chinese emphasis on balance.
So, in the West the talk is always of ones rights and no discussion of its corresponding obligations. Perhaps in China they lean more heavily in the other direction. Either way, the trick is to find the right balance.
There are many other such differences. I presume we will be getting them in the coming installments.
I think this applies to the Japanese and Koreans too. South Asia (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh) have the same social cohesion but loyalties and imperatives are fractured along different lines. In India caste plays a big role and Hindu society is divided along these lines. This is further divided along the Hindu-Muslim, Sikh and north-south, north-east, etc.
Both Pakistan and Bangladesh which are almost all Muslim have Sunni-Shia and pro-Arab vs Persian schisms. They too have subtle caste systems that are based on caste lineage.
All three are very very color conscious and racist.
And Western advocates of individual rights, like Mill, always emphasised that these rights only extended as far as the rights of others, and could not usurp those others’ rights. In the psychopathic and misanthropic sewer of neo-liberal capitalism, in contrast, all human rights are simply commodities mediated by the individual’s money power. Lots of money, lots of ‘rights’, like Epstein’s ‘right’ to exploit scores of girls. No money, no ‘rights’, like his victims.
“China’s savings rate is still 46% (https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/china/gross-savings-rate). This compares to Americans’ 17% (https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/united-states/gross-savings-rate)”.
Hmmmm. If “Americans” as a whole save 17% of their income, how come half of them couldn’t raise $400 in an emergency?
I wonder if that figure of 17% is a statistical freak of the kind that inspired the old joke:
Bill Gates walks into a working-class bar. Immediately everyone in the bar is a billionaire – on average.
Agreed. Quite a misleading statistics which must distort the actual reality………. even for the Chinese…who as a society are saving and investing……..while the West has been auto-cannibalizing itself.
“If you are a working person in the US with any dependents and make $40,000 per year, it is a significant struggle to even save $400 in a year (1%!!) and more than likely you are shut out of the possibility of even using credit to build equity in a home ……….or invest in anything that has even a slight chance of any appreciation.
If your income is $400,000…even after paying a lot of tax……..it is exponentially easier to save exponentially more….say $50.000 or $100,000. Just forego a luxury vacation or two, drive older vehicles for some years, and so forth.”
(Paraphrase of remarks from Dr Craig S Wright….also known as Satoshi Nakamoto of 2009 Bitcoin White Paper fame…..who addresses a Chinese audience……..in the link below
Ergo, it is obvious that a hugely disproportionate portion of the supposed 17% savings rate, especially in the US has to be among the upper 1%..incomes……….and the actual rate among the 99% many……is NEGATIVE, I suspect…and not anywhere near +17%:………or at least among the bottom 30 or 40%
Increasing indebtedness throughout a discouraging life as a cog in a machine (credit cards, student loans, car loans…………..refinancing of home equity—if the person was ever even able to get one foot on the home equity ladder……….late fees, overdrafts, defaults, bankruptcy more than once, as a lifestyle, tax deficiency debt….etc.) that in Empire since the end of the 1960’s hasn’t been very well oiled or updated…for the majority of Americans….at all.
All they get is the ego trip of “We’re # 1!!” because of “Our Great Military” and many of those poor slobs are missing limbs or portions of their sanity …….from serving in it…….mostly ignorant (of how they were dumbed down, swindled, used up like toilet paper…..) even today……….. of the full extent of how they were suckered.
But not entirely. I think there is a significant awakening among the former 100% suckers…..whose mass stirring and snapping out of a deep sleep………. torpedoed in Hitlery’s in 2016.
But there’s still not nearly enough recognition through looking in the mirror (of past ignorance, stupidity, littleness) that was profiled so successfully for decades by the “elites” that induced them to give up power to evil leaders ………in virtually “dead asleep” zombie fashion…….and until that reckoning of past Sins of Omission is much, much more acknowledged and confessed……many of the Deplorables and MAGA supporters……….are still 50% suckers of their own egos and ignorance.
However, IMHO ….hope lies more with them, than their “blue” libtard, 100% brainwashed counterparts: At least there is SOME notable change in the right direction with the smarter Trumpers, especially in the dawning awareness of how pathetically idiotic the Fake Left’s Russophobia has become.
Where the Unconscious Western Ego in Themselves is the blind spot……..that threatens to Divide and Conquer them again………is in their SINO-phobia….and worship of the Western Religion of Individualism………..which they need to recognize …in their globalist Empire enemies ……as The Ego Run Completely Amuck……….i.e. Satanism….the extreme form of individualism….even while they peddle a fake liberal “socialism” to their western dupes of Victim Identity…to keep power…and crush the right of nations to collectively advance.
Ironically, perhaps their best chance of overcoming this difficulty that they have in balancing West with East…….is far above both…..in cooperation in international space exploration. …..which is also the area in which Chinese individual scientists…..just as in a similarly far less “western” and collectivist Russian Civilization…will and ARE contributing…………as all scientific discovery occurs only in the individual human mind ….whether Russian, Chinese, German…..French….or African…..even though such individual creativity may be socially and collective-culturally stimulated.
Those scinetists of whatever nation are creative individuals committed to discovery of Universal principles ….the true value of the individual human being, free in eternity……………as opposed to the Empire model of the Individual Ego Run Amuck ………..as a repeater of predation of humanity……and creator of nothing new…….enslaved to particularism and the very fleeting reality of “dominance” within the material world.
Dr Wright in addressing Chinese crypto “miners” (the majority in the world, evidently….) recently, does demonstrate remarkable understanding of what makes their society tick (to the consternation of the anarcho-capitalist Sinophobes in the comments…lol.) in my opinion, as a counterpoint, in the realm of discussing the evolution of “the measuring stick of value” and its evolution …money…which is NOT value…….but is only its measuring stick…………………value being useful work….ie human creativity in transforming “nature” (including in the arts…..) and labor…..and Investment in such useful labor………which includes, very notably also for China and partners today…………OBOR and the colonization and industrialization of the moon) which a much more honest, (nearly fraud-proof…in fact!) form of measuring stick………….will greatly assist and encourage the process of savings and investment in useful work, everywhere:
Back to the Future of Bitcoin: Why Miners Should Support Satoshi Vision
https://youtu.be/1CRqU27ojbc
In China. Note the Chinese character script on the stage and in the very first seconds of this video, the Chinese host’s humorous philosophical interchange with CSW’s opening remark (and continuing stretto…) regarding “If we look at Kung Shi Fu…he talked about the need for work.”
I agree with both of you. Basically the Stats have always been cooked-up so that the general population can feel good, even though their own house economy stunk.
Tom, there are ‘lies, damned lies and statistics’, and this 17% is an average. The rich are saving 90% or so of their massive incomes, all stolen, and the serfs are saving nothing, or a minus as the go ever deeper into debt.
@Tom Welsh:
15.5% of that 17% figure is associated with Social Security (FICA) contributions, employed and employers both cough up half. The remaining percentage is probably 401K contributions of those who participate. Participation rate in 401K is only about 50% of employed.
Now, if statistics on debt (instead of savings) is tallied, I imagine the figure would be ghastly.
It was reported a little while ago that 40% or so of Americans could not find $400 in an emergency. That finding was reinforced, to my mind, by the efforts of Rightwing disinformers to deny it.
From what I remember of my little paperback on Confucius, right at the top of that list, above Govt+Leaders, there ought to be Sky; and below Sky, Ancestors+Learning.
In actual fact, East and West have had their stars aligned. The question, whether or not this will continue, who can say? Here are some trivial examples: intermutual globalization of commodities and markets; cultural and societal interbreeding; basic religious harmonizations. The Chinese say— Happy Five! The Americans say— Happy Fourth! The Chinese previously adorned their households and effects with curious idols, but now they assume the far more curious idol of self-worship: Disney style!
I know the works of JJB and appreciated the personal view… but I thnk he will agree china is really far more complex than that, even just the modern china. JJB is under the CSC and he need to runs his newly from business and keep on the daily living. For me, all gov are regimes. Period. We are currently bless to have VVP and Xi to be man of courage. Let’s say a good prayer for them. We need a new system that assures MORE BALANCE if we were to have a gov-type system in the future.
For Paul and others interested in how the HK clown-show will affect Russia… YES RUSSIA (not china)
The best so far I found is -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmJwjjeWHKk
Whatever that be – HK clown-show may be down in history as THE BUTTON that ends ALL other clown-show
(if they cant or wont fold EUR Doicher bank may be HKG HSABC bank will do?)
Somebody wants to END THIS SHOW BADLY and FAST!
well, what s your favorite ‘regime’ after all, since all are regimes in the end?
aNY student of History has noted that Chineses -and russians- never have had what led to our western present regimes of I, myself and me.
Ruskies and Hang Chens never had a Martin Luther preacher , nor a Diderot neither a Robespierre or Madison – all of whom led directly to our 1%ter ‘s regimes…
Which kind of regimes you prefer and which ones will prevail?
I reject those of the 1%er crude statement removed .. mod.
@augusto
Imagine!
Whats if we dont have to live under ANY regime?
Imagine like Lennon maybe?!
What I like to see and think its absolutely possible is to achieve is -> TYPE II civilisation (at least)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kardashev_scale
I think if we are each Energy Free then the current regime of all sorts of control mechanism (based on oil and oil-link money thus banks thus gov thus police/MIC thus law thus tax) must also fall… incl china and russia
But IMAGINE?! maybe?
I am not a registered product of and under any gov regime, am I?
I realize I am not a very deep strategic thinker. In fact, I am rather simple. There is right and wrong. Good and evil. Truth and lies. I find the arguments advanced by the man in that video link to be nearly irrelevant. He is stressing some political and moral ‘capital’ Russia and China have built up. Built-up to impress who? The west? They should not care much about the thinking of the west. And I will refrain from ranting on the long list of crimes committed by the west. This uprising in Hong Kong has western hands all over it! Name any country which would tolerate a gang of disgruntled thugs ripping down the society around them. There isn’t a single government that would tolerate it for long especially when it is not merely an internal dispute but in reality, is more akin to an invasion by a foreign power. Russia has no need to involve itself in China’s business and their relationship will not be hurt at all with China. The Chinese military could simply close off Hong Kong, letting nobody in or out. They can be allowed to eat themselves unless the local officials get control of the situation. There is no reason for this little boil on their backside to disrupt their belt and road initiative.
Well, I lost some time hearing this blabbering obvious CIA old minion verbalizing all the hopes the US has on the HK riots organized by its General Consulate..
Delusional as everything coming from the US government/MIC/Intelligence apparatus.
Neither China nor Russia are going to loose any political capital in case they react as everybody in its sane juice would react, restoring order and rule of law where the US/UK payed thugs try to disrupt it in the case of Cginas, and respecting internal affairs in other countries, in the case of Russia.
Interesting article. I would like to add a few points.
The author has presented a ‘Civilization hierarchy’, China compared to the West. The actual chart is a little bit too simplistic. It can fully apply to the US, but not to Europe, as some of the qualities which Chinese culture possesses can also be found in the cultures of European states.
What is culture ? It is a product of history, based on laws and traditions. China has more than 5.000 years of history, Russia more than 1.000 years as a state and more than 2.000 years as a confederacy of states, while Europe has over 2.000 years. And the US ? Debatable how much history it really possesses, officially since 1776, but in reality after 1865 and the end of the Civil War.
US culture is based on culture brought over from Europe, changing over time, being modified to suit life on the North Continent. You could say that the bulk of European culture can be found in the southern US states, in the former Confederacy. In the other states you will find modifications of this culture, so much so that the established mentality cannot be compared to mentalities in European states.
What is the point I am trying to make ? Russia and China will survive, as they have history and tradition behind them. Had it not been for massive immigration from third world countries, I would have said that West European states will also survive. However, this remains to be seen, as massive immigration is wrecking the cultural base of Western Europe, doing tremendous damage to the stability of these states, and not only culturally, but socially, politically, economically and financially. And the US ? I am afraid I don’t see it surviving. I lived in the US, and as far as I saw, the only thing keeping the country together were laws, the police and the military. Whats going to happen if (and when) the US experiences another financial crash, worse than the one in 1933 ? The country will probably disintegrate and we shall once more see the rise of the Confederacy.
The base of US culture was mostly European.But the new modern culture of the last few decades is not.From music,movies,books,clothes,hairstyles,to language,it is heavily minority non-European based.The latest language words to be inserted into US English “throwing shade” is from the Black and Latino Gay communities.Since Americanisms have taken over youth culture Worldwide we see the new culture everywhere.It seems most of the World has forgotten the saying “Give me just one generation of youth, and I’ll transform the whole world.” and “Give me the child, and I will mould the man” . By abandoning the youth to Americanization,we see the Kiev maidan,the Moscow protests and the Hong Kong riots as our reward.
Uncle Bob
Yes, what you have said is true, with one vital difference. We have seen massive demonstrations in Kiev in 2014 and in Hong Kong in 2019. However, look at the latest “demonstrations” in Moscow. According to police reports, the NGO organizers brought slightly more than 20.000 demonstrators, while according to organizers some 49.000 came to the streets (I wonder how the organizers managed to derive at the exact figure of 49.000). Moscow has a population of 14 million, while organizers could not even fill half a football stadium. They never could. They always quote the highly suspicious figure of “almost 50.000”).
The point is that Russia is experiencing a Christian revival, with 30.000 churches both rebuilt and built under Putin’s watch. In the West it’s the opposite. The bulk of “demonstrators” you had in Moscow were both underage and overage teenagers, who came out to have a good time. The same thing over here in Serbia where I live. When President Vuchich won the last elections, in less than 24 hours you had a “demonstration” against him, the bulk of the “demonstrators” being kids, obviously under NGO control. When these kids saw that there was no public response to their “demonstration”, they went home and never repeated the same thing. When Putin came to Belgrade, a mass of people came out to welcome him. They were joined by “demonstrators”, a bunch of kids who could have filled a few buses.
As one analyst stated some years back, the future belongs to the East, being backed by the slogan “Go East Young Man”, the same slogan being modeled after the slogan “Go West Young Man” which you had in the US back in the 19th century.
Yes,but my point was the “kind” of people,not so much the numbers. Its the Americanized ,or maybe called by another name,”Westernized” youth,that is the problem.Those that think speaking English makes them cool.That wears clothes with writing in English on them,or US sports teams on the t-shirt or caps.Because to them that makes them,oh,so much more hip than their friends.That listen to Western hip-hop,again,you can’t be with the “in kids” if you don’t.Those that want to go to school in the West,or if they aren’t “lucky” enough for that,then at least study at “Westernized” schools in their own country.I see that even in Russia and China,and cry.I can’t hardly believe that those countries at least could not understand how dangerous it is to let the West gain a foothold among their youth.And not just “youth” in general.But the educated sons and daughters of the middle and upper classes. Didn’t they learn “anything” from the fall of the USSR.How much of a poison the Western influence among the Nomenklatura can be.
Uncle Bob
Yes, I understand what you are saying. However, as I wrote above, Russia is experiencing a Christian revival. The NGO’s in Russia tried introducing ‘feminism’ among Russian girls, with very limited results. Russian girls responded by introducing organizations for the promotion of family values, i.e. girls getting married and having kids. During the Winter Olympics and World Cup, Russian teenagers organized themselves into volunteers who worked without wages. How many teenagers in the West would do the same thing ? Putin payed them a visit, receiving a huge and warm welcome. You can see a video about this on YouTube.
I definitely agree with you Uncle Bob. Russia and China definitely underestimate the western poison that has overtaken its youth and if they’re not careful the consequences will be unfathomable.
I agree with both of you Mak and UB.
The poison as you say was being fed to the outside World (outside the Anglo sphere) in early sixties. I’d like to remind the older people the Jimmy Hedrix’s, the Rolling Stones, the Beatles, the “twist”, and list goes on and on.
And the Europe, which didn’t even understand one word being “mumbled” out to the microphones just happily jumped around. I hate to admit it, but I was one of those.
Individualism is the narcotic used to enslave citizens of our hierarchical culture. It is used in conjunction with the illusion of freedom to control the masses. The truth is the exact opposite of the consoling lies our culture sings to us.
Well said. Not that I believe the individual has no value or worth. Each one does have such value. But this has to be balanced with other realities. This rugged individualism is largely a myth in the bigger picture because no individual is capable of doing everything. We all need what every other can contribute. For example, a person may be a skilled mechanic. But does he know how to make a pair of shoes? Or how to weave and sew garments? What about manufacturing the materials to make those garments? And sooner or later in life, the hard reality of our own fragility overtakes us when we become ill, injured or otherwise weakened and need to rely to one degree or another on other people to help us. Rugged individualism goes by the wayside then.
The American ‘Wild West’ was the epitome of ‘rugged individualism’, where 90% of ‘shoot-outs’ were settled by bullets to the back, and the great Native American leader, Crazy Horse, was murdered by a pipsqueak who bayoneted him in the back.
Jeff of course is quite right. Now I would like to point out WHY this is so. It is because the meta belief system of China is also totally the opposite of Western beliefs. Here are two specific examples:
1. The Diamond Sutra probably written in India, and one of the many quintessential texts of Mahayana Buddhism, says things like: The Buddha asked one of his disciples, “One who has set on the path of Enlightenment, how should one conduct oneself and control his thoughts (his being his/hers–there are many examples of women making fools of self important monks)?
Answer: As many being as there are, born from eggs born from wombs born from moisture, or miraculously born. All these I must lead to Nirvana, to the Nirvana that LEAVES NOTHING BEHIND [my emphasis]. And yet after all beings have been led to Nirvana, no being at all has been led to Nirvana. And why? because if a Bodhisattava (a Buddha in training) harbors the idea of a being, a soul or a person, one could not be a Bodhisattava.
The concept of Non self,–No self existent entity, but rather, a constant flux of causes and conditions, that is seen as the real state of so called Existence.
The text recited in all Chinese and all schools of Northern (Mahayana aka Great Vehicle), starts with
“The Buddha in training Kuan Yin (that is Cannon, which the Japanese company is named after) while practicing deeply the Perfection of Wisdom, perceived that all 5 components of existence are insubstantial, and thus was saved from suffering. Form, feeling, perceptions, impulses consciousness, they do not appear or disappear, are not tainted nor pure,”. Point being that Wisdom (and practiced by Kuan Yin as Compassion) are the highest human values to be constantly cultivated. On close examination by one’s ‘spiritual electron microscope’ cannot find an identifiable indivisible Entity! Modern Physics is very much in parallel with this perception.
A further example is that of the idea of merit. A person of the highest character does not practice good deeds to earn spiritual brownie points. Boundless generosity without thought of gain, or fame are of the highest value.
These are all antithetical to modern Cartesian materialistic thinking. Of course, we see similar trends in Christianity as well as Islam and Judaism. However, in China and in Asia generally, these concepts are not just ideas, but are deeply internalized in Asian culture, generally, at least as I perceive them.
In my own case, having become disenchanted with American culture very early on, and studied Zen for years, I came to the realization that, as I say to my Chinese friends “Wo de shenti shi Meiguren danshi shin shi Zhongguo Ren. –My body is American but my heart is Chinese”
Well, I am certainly no where near as developed as the typical Chinese person, but I feel way way more affinity with Chinese, than with Westerners, who seem oblivious to the sensibilities that Jeff noted and expresses so well in this article. Much gratitude for your explaining this! And thanks to The Saker for giving Jeff a forum for his ideas!
Historically, the USA was far more individualistic than it is now. It had been a collection of independent farmers and entrepreneurs. However, over the past century and a half, economic control has been centralized into the hands of fewer and fewer elites. This has been by methodical design. The population has been slowly indoctrinated into accepting more and more corporate (production) and government (legal) control. Both are instruments of the financial elite. This indoctrination starts with the school system and pervades most of American society.
When the USA was founded, it was a departure from the English system that was controlled by the elites. At the time, it was a model for the world, and it was viewed with enthusiasm and hope, as a solution to systems that were dysfunctional for the common man. Since then it has followed the usual trajectory, and become more centralized and less individualistic.
Some observers have recently commented that economically the Chinese are now more classically “American” than Americans. Could be. That might explain their economic success, and the West’s economic stagnation.
I believe the mantra “the Chinese (system) are (is) so different!” is a typical western myth.
It’s like the demonisation of the Chinese, only inverted.
My experiences in Guangzhou are that these are just ordinary people, as you and me. But each of my “western” visitors wanted to see them as something “completely different”.
For example, people in Guangzhou quarrel quite a lot, also in public. But the friend who was just with me, when seeing that obviously there was a couple having a fight, with their friend awkwardly walking behind them (the same as everybody in the “west” would do), immediately had to explain this away — “you can’t understand this, Chinese are completely different”.
Chinese faces are quite hard to remember for some time (they have the same problem with “us”). But that vanishes after some time, and then Chinese are as individual (or not) as everybody else.
Another example: the “westerner” (my friends, or say people visiting the Olympics) sees everywhere military, while in almost most cases these are just traditional uniforms of employees. In China you see much modernity (in the big cities), but also very much is similar to Europe one hundred years ago (wearing uniforms was also much more common then).
The importance of family and the clan is another example. This explains I believe a lot of the corruption you hear about (from Chinese friends): it’s all family (or clan) business, as it also used to be in Europe.
Sure, there are millions of differences, but they are much more subtle than the myth of the “top-down state” (a typical US-american myth, as “the land of the free”; I believe it originates from a US-author).
And sure, the Chinese project as we do. They envy (at least I heard that several times) the individuality of the “westerners”: ” you are all so different, while we are all the same — just look at your hair — every westerner is different, while we all just have black hair”.
The talk about “civilisations” is so extremely simplifying, it isn’t useful for anything anymore. Just projections and fantasies. (Too) Simple Stories.
@My experiences in Guangzhou are that these are just ordinary people, as you and me
My experiences in Guangzhou, Beijing completed with ones in ‘provincial’ cities exactly match yours.
Almost everyone has a smartphone (5G) with Google translate app, so you can communicate easily. In restaurants they would offer you forks, but they were not surprised that we used chopsticks.
”In the West, it’s all about individualism and personal freedom.”
I’ve never been impressed by this so-called ’individualism’, really. It strikes me as the spiritual equivalent of ugly, odorous cosmetics. Scratch a rugged Western ’individualist’ and marvel at the grovelling invertebrate peeping out. If there were any substance to this alleged Western ’individuality’, Pindos wouldn’t take offense as foreigners voice their strong, negative views of the US government. Flag-waving, loud, obnoxious National Socialists forever high on corporate fascist misculture have very little on offer collectively as well as individually.
The rugged individual image is largely a creation of Hollywood, as in the Marlboro man, which is an advertising trope.
The reality is very different. The harsh environment of the Western US requires collective endeavour to survive.
In the West, psychopaths seek power and grab it. In China the State controls business, whereas in the West the money power of the parasites controls politics and everything else. In the West, in order for the rich parasites to retain power, they use their politicians and media vermin to divide society against itself, setting one group against another in ruthless class conflicts and ‘culture wars’ where enmity and partisanship rather than compromise and mutual respect are dominant. In China, as for thousands of years, harmony and right behaviour are paramount, to create a society where different groups work together for mutual benefit. The differences are as that between light and dark, and Good and Evil. The West, while certainly not irreformable and having great achievements in human affairs in the past (diamonds amidst the muck of imperialism, colonialism, racism and xenophobia)is, at present, run and controlled by real monsters, and monsters hate and fear the Good, which China, despite its own mistakes, represents.
Mulga; i love the way you get to the essence of it.
Thank you very much for this enlightening. Presently reading Dongping Han’s book “The unknown Cultural Révolution” ans I find your article complementary. Interesting perspective
a discussion about “western vs asian” society must begin with first examining the myths Western society tells about itself and to logically dissect whether those myths are in fact the truth or are more lies so called “Western democracy” tells its citizens.
For example the self-made solo man myth Western society loves to present: is that true or just yet another fake fable?
Living in so called Western democracy for the last 30 years I have observed that a lot of fables and mythologies presented are simple hogwash BS.
Self made man is one of the biggest. In USA especially, Communism is presented as totally evil dictatorial regime and failed economic system but everyone in USA is either trying to get a gov job or/and a government contract of some kind. The biggest welfare queens in USA for example aren’t the poor welfare mothers but corporations such as Lockheed martin, Raytheon and Boyeng. It’s a well known fact Amazon for example hasn’t paid a dime of taxes to the US government. Million of companies are getting a a nice fat check from the US gov for providing some type of service: For example, my mother lives in a HUD housing and the company that owns the building gets about 75 thousand dollars a month for basically doing nothing but letting a bunch of old poor women live in tiny rooms.
So it goes: most of what so called Western democracies say is pure BS and lies and it has been that way for centuries.
“For example the self-made solo man myth Western society loves to present: is that true or just yet another fake fable?”
Just remember that the self made man is very independant and changes his own nappies!!!
Constructive article indeed. Jeff the East and the West are two sides of the same coin. To see that clearly, one has to go outside west/east paradigm. It takes an extreme Egoist to become a true philanthropist. The communal approach is natural to all people of the world, it is result of thousands of years of human experience. The West is a relatively new experiment in human history. By the West I do not mean ordinary hard working European people. I mean a concept that exploit tendencies in human psych in a certain systematic way. It owes success to a human tendency called “suggestibility” (ie herd mentality) .Human weakness such as selfishness, greed, swagger, etc are given wide approval by branding them with names like Marlboro Man. Human tendency to identify with their bodies, family, culture. country. etc, are cunningly exploited with an ego boosting fallacy called “Special/Selected” people. Giving rise to things like racism, war, etc.The East is the West approached from a different direction.
Read confession of the economic hitman, perkins
More Hong Kong:
A British government minister’s blog around the time of the London riots:
‘The government and the judicial system need to stand behind the police and make it clear that they will get the backing they need in such events. If Ian Tomlinson was told by riot police to stop and move away and he didn’t do so, then surely the police have every right to assume that he’s planning something; surely they have every right to treat him as suspicious for their own safety? It’s all well and good the government and the public saying he shouldn’t have been pushed but they weren’t there on the ground having to make the split second decision.’
https://www.thecanary.co/uk/2018/01/18/tory-vice-chair-encouraged-police-brutality-riots-caused-police-brutality/
Video of police assault on Ian Tomlinson, who died at the London G20 protest
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HECMVdl-9SQ
Police Officer was not found guilty despite the Medical Coroner reporting that it was an unlawful death.
No wonder the compradore rioters in Hong Kong yearn for the Western ‘Rule of Law’, a really nasty, racist, illusion.
This person was killed by a police officer. He was not a G20 protestor just walking home.
The original post mortem showed a heart attack whereas later ones showed that he died from blunt force trauma.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Ian_Tomlinson
What are we talking about? China is afraid of USA in every sense. They shall stop buying Venez. oil.
https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/CNPC-Backs-Out-Of-Oil-Purchases-With-Venezuela-On-Sanctions-Scare.html
CPNC’s PetroChina has canceled loading plans in August that would have seen 5 million barrels of Venezuelan oil, the sources said, as the United States continues to squeeze Venezuela to loosen Nicolas Maduro’s hold on the troubled Latin American Country.
Maduro has precious few allies left, and until recently, China has been a devoted one. China was one of PDVSA’s top buyers of crude oil, even after the initial rounds of sanctions took hold. But now things are changing, and the most recent screw-turning by the Trump administration has foreign oil companies doing business with PDVSA on edge. The new sanctions target companies—even foreign ones—doing business with PDVSA, threatening to seize their assets in the United States if they have any.
CPNC’s PetroChina has canceled loading plans in August that would have seen 5 million barrels of Venezuelan oil, the sources said, as the United States continues to ***squeeze*** Venezuela to loosen Nicolas Maduro’s hold on the ***troubled*** Latin American Country.
Maduro has ***precious*** few allies left, and until recently, China has been a ***devoted*** one. China was one of PDVSA’s top buyers of crude oil, even after the initial rounds of sanctions ***took hold***. But now things are changing, and the most recent ***screw-turning*** by the Trump administration has foreign oil companies doing business with PDVSA ***on edge***. The new sanctions target companies—even foreign ones—doing business with PDVSA, ***threatening*** to ***seize*** their assets in the United States if they have any.
Every sentence is thought terminating or emotive or uncertain:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought-terminating_clich%C3%A9
This is pretty obvious propaganda. We all need to decode this on the fly.
You are right.
Wikipedia isn’t a reliable source when it comes to anything where history and/or up-to-date events concerning countries, climate change etc. are searched.
Wikipedia can only be consulted when it concerns natural sciences. Point.
Any other things written in wikipedia have to be regarded extremely critical as usually it isn’t true or at least it is more propaganda and either not based in its entirety or only partly based on facts. Especially when Western politically motivated individuals see that it “should” being “flatten”.
How much longer will the world continue to put up with this insanely arrogant and vicious extra-territoriality of the Evil US regime seeking to impose its diktat on every other country on Earth?
https://www.fort-russ.com/amp/2019/08/feel-in-the-game-how-protests-are-organized-in-moscow/
Russian news article ( I tried to find original source)translated by excellent Eva Bartlett…recommend her own social media posts too. The participants being ” engineered” by use of social media specialists across linked platforms. Surely corresponds with HK events.
https://russian.rt.com/russia/article/659423-protest-orginizatory-prizyvy-agitaciya-besporyadki?fbclid=IwAR1S3TpmPmEvAh0ZN84mbomfQhmmKc99q7FUz7MwMaQVIpCKdvm95CcB7E0
Original link?
It goes much deeper than just the political. Even the direction of time is reversed, as Westerners see themselves as distinct entities, moving through their context, so the future is viewed as being in front, while the past is behind. While in the East, the past, being known, is in front, as it can be seen, while the future and what is behind are unknown and unseen. Which does accord with the fact we see events after they occur, then the energy transmutes to other events.
So one is object oriented and linear, while the other is contextually based and more cyclical.
Our religious paradigm is monotheism, while the Eastern is the polarity and feedback of yin and yang.
The logical fallacy of monotheism is that a spiritual absolute would necessarily be the essence of sentience, from which we rise, not an ideal of wisdom and judgement, from which we fell.
This conflating the absolute with the ideal does lead to a bit of cultural narcissism, we see ourselves as constantly seeking that perfect state, from religious experience, to mathematical formulae, while others simply exist.
Yet to get back to the issue of time, it is not so much the point of the present, moving past to future, as it is change turning future to past. Potential>actual>residual. There is only the present state and thermodynamics rules it more directly, than the linearity of time. Processes churn along, from past to future, while the patterns generated rise and fall, future to past. Consciousness goes past to future, while the thoughts generated go future to past. The feedback being the patterns define and direct the process. Motor and steering.
So it is no wonder the West is on the path to its narrative finale, whether Armageddon, or the Singularity, while the East sits back and watches…
(Removed attack,MOD) I’m sorry but the horrible, individualistic West created Science and the Modern World, and the greatest Art, Architecture, and Music in human History. I’m happy to make the comparison between Notre Dame and the Forbidden City, or whatever passes for the greatest Chinese music to Beethoven’s Ninth Symphony. The whole ‘Western Civilization is garbage’ jamboree really needs to stop. European civilization (and I certainly include Russia in that) is the greatest the World has known … period.
It’s not about the past. It’s about the future. The West will survive, but it is going to go through some rough times and hopefully come out a little wiser and more resilient.
Europe and the US have been blowing up third world countries for a couple of centuries and with modern transport, find themselves flooded with the refugees. We will have to learn to put other parts of the world back together again. Karma is a bitch and it is an increasingly smaller planet.
The downside of individualism is that it leaves an atomized culture, more easily controlled by top down and external forces, with most relationships mediated by a parasitic financial system. Networks are every bit as important as the nodes.
comment to SteveK9:
Your posting lacks the point of history. Developments are usually based on earlier developments. Throughout history this can be followed up.
Without the Far East than the Middle East the so-called “European culture” wouldn’t have been developed. Even its religion is based on other cultural believes and even tales have been “woven” into are taken from much older cultures.
However, “European culture” lacks the point of philosophy in its true meaning. Most “developments” in this field are based and quite often distorted our of other believes and deeper thoughts.
As history goes on – this moment is already being put into past – I would point out that culture goes round our globe.
Reading history and especially the rise and fall of kingdoms and empires is not only a pastime endeavor it gives more feeling of what mankind is made of and how its societies are usually prone to reach critical mass and with its tipping point a new culture is developing on other places.
The ‘greatest civilization the World has known’ produced also the ugliness of ‘counter-culture’, ‘pop-culture’, hip-hop ‘culture’, hippie drug ‘culture’, punks, Conchita Wurst, graffiti ‘art’. European civilization might have been the ‘greatest…”, it is no more… period.
Yeah, very much not western, very caring to each other, only when they are in traffic things may differ:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0stXjzLmUao
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AviD12Lmd1I
Shame on us, after all we invented motorized transportation… ;-)
There was a counterpart of the Chinese Confucianism hierarchy model existing in the West since the Dark Ages and in those days the “individual” on the bottom was often called “serf”. And the “leader” who was called “king” was not accountable to anyone—practically speaking that is,—and could do to anyone else whatever he or she pleased. The West over a long and bloody process developed some ways to make leaders accountable to the followers and be removed in some orderly non-violent ways,—like by impeachment,—if they should become too abusive. The individuals can organize into groups, by free choice, and when they pay taxes on voluntary basis as taxation with representation, and those taxes pay for the upper echelons, the leaders, then in effect the people choose the leaders and hire them, and the leaders work for the people.—The other way around presupposes leaders who are true spiritual and moral beacons of justice and restraint and care for their followers which unfortunately rarely exists. No system in the West trains leaders to be like that. Taxes which are by consent of the taxed, elections, rights to referendum and recall or impeachment of leaders who are harmful to society, where leaders are employees of the people, and can be hired or fired by the people, that is the somewhat workable solution devised in the West. Good luck with leaders ever being true Confucian scholars, even in China. The people in the West are rightly skeptical about top-down government. They’ve already “been there, done that”.