Check out this story by AP and compare the lame, pathetic and self-evident nonsense of these so-called “intelligence officials” offer with the hard fact based presentation of the Russian Air Force Chief of Staff.
Here is the full article with my comments in blue.
WASHINGTON (AP) — Senior U.S. intelligence officials said Tuesday that Russia was responsible for “creating the conditions” that led to the shooting down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, but they offered no evidence of direct Russian government involvement.
The intelligence officials were cautious in their assessment, noting that while the Russians have been arming separatists in eastern Ukraine, the U.S. had no direct evidence that the missile used to shoot down the passenger jet came from Russia.
The officials briefed reporters Tuesday under ground rules that their names not be used in discussing intelligence related to last week’s air disaster, which killed 298 people.
The plane was likely shot down by an SA-11 surface-to-air missile fired by Russian-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine, the intelligence officials said, citing intercepts, satellite photos and social media postings by separatists, some of which have been authenticated by U.S. experts.
But the officials said they did not know who fired the missile or whether any Russian operatives were present at the missile launch. They were not certain that the missile crew was trained in Russia, although they described a stepped-up campaign in recent weeks by Russia to arm and train the rebels, which they say has continued even after the downing of the commercial jetliner.
In terms of who fired the missile, “we don’t know a name, we don’t know a rank and we’re not even 100 percent sure of a nationality,” one official said, adding at another point, “There is not going to be a Perry Mason moment here.”
White House deputy national security adviser Ben Rhodes said the U.S. was still working to determine whether the missile launch had a “direct link” to Russia, including whether there were Russians on the ground during the attack and the degree to which Russians may have trained the separatists to launch such a strike.
“We do think President Putin and the Russian government bears responsibility for the support they provided to these separatists, the arms they provided to these separatists, the training they provided as well and the general unstable environment in eastern Ukraine,” Rhodes said in an interview with CNN.
He added that heavy weaponry continues to flow into Ukraine from Russia following the downing of the plane.
The intelligence officials said the most likely explanation for the downing was that the rebels made a mistake. Separatists previously had shot down 12 Ukrainian military airplanes, the officials said.
The officials made clear they were relying in part on social media postings and videos made public in recent days by the Ukrainian government, even though they have not been able to authenticate all of it. For example, they cited a video of a missile launcher said to have been crossing the Russian border after the launch, appearing to be missing a missile.
But later, under questioning, the officials acknowledged they had not yet verified that the video was exactly what it purported to be.
Despite the fuzziness of some details, however, the intelligence officials said the case that the separatists were responsible for shooting down the plane was solid. Other scenarios — such as that the Ukrainian military shot down the plane — are implausible, they said. No Ukrainian surface-to-air missile system was in range. (That is a lie as proven by the Russian satellite imagery and signal intercepts which prove that they Ukies had plenty of batteries freshly brought right next to the combat zone even though the Novorissians had just one Su-25 close air support aircraft in their entire inventory)
From satellites, sensors and other intelligence gathering, officials said, they know where the missile originated — in separatist-held territory — and what its flight path was. But if they possess satellite or other imagery of the missile being fired, they did not release it Tuesday. A graphic they made public depicts their estimation of the missile’s flight path with a green line. The jet’s flight path was available from air traffic control data.
In the weeks before the plane was shot down, Russia had stepped up its arming and training of the separatists after the Ukrainian government won a string of battlefield victories. The working theory is that the SA-11 missile came from Russia, although the U.S. doesn’t have proof of that, the officials said.
U.S. Ambassador to the U.N. Samantha Power said last week that “because of the technical complexity of the SA-11, it is unlikely that the separatists could effectively operate the system without assistance from knowledgeable personnel. Thus, we cannot rule out technical assistance from Russian personnel in operating the systems,” she said.
Asked about evidence, one of the senior U.S. intelligence officials said it was conceivable that Russian paramilitary troops are operating in eastern Ukraine, but that there was no direct link from them to the missile launch.
Asked why civilian airline companies were not warned about a possible threat, the officials said they did not know the rebels possessed SA-11 missiles until after the Malaysian airliner was shot down. (WHAT? Even I new this, just by reading the reports about the seized Buks, reports which even included photos. They are really insulting our collective intelligence again!)
Have you counted the “caveat words”? I counted fifteen (depending on what you want to include). Notice that they consider the Ukie missile as “implausible” but that they never explain why this would be implausible. And they admit relying in part on social media and Ukie government info? How absolutely utterly pathetic. I mean – I feel sorry for them. For any self-respecting intelligence official to admit such things is to commit a seppuku of your professional pride. It’s admitting that you are an amateur and a drooling moron. And here is the deal – I very much doubt that these men are amateurs or morons. So, yet again, they were back-stabbed by imbecile politicians like Obama and Power who just are not used to consulting with their own specialist before flapping their lips and nevermind if they make an entire intelligence community look like cretins.
I can barely imaging how much the US intelligence community must *hate* this administration. Can you imagine what it must be to be a highly experienced US State Department or DIA career officer and listen to how the Russians constantly berate the US government for being “un-professional” and “amateurish” only to then hear that kind of absolute utter nonsense spoken in your name.
Look, in this game I am 100% on Russia’s side, but part of me, on a (ex-) professional level if you want, feels the pain that I am sure many career intelligence officers feel today in the USA and they have my sincere sympathy. I met enough of them to know that they are not the idiots that this Administration makes them out to be.
But of course the big news here is this: the US fairy tale about Putin the terrorist is falling down in flames. Yet again the Neocons by their sheer arrogance, hubris and boundless stupidity manged to lie their way into a corner from which there is no exit. Not that the US had much street-cred anyway, not after Colin Powell’s dishwasher powder in a vial at the UNSC. But, of course, there is bad, very bad, even worse and outright terrible. But now the US has reached the “terminal” stage.
The AngloZionists sure had this one coming.
The Saker
PS: in the meantime, check the zoo that the freaks in Kiev made of their “Parliament”:
All of this is a total joke. Russians had their presidential airplane in that area, so it would be expected that they scanned and recorded everything to the maximum of their technical ability, to ensure the safety of their president. That includes all communications on the ground and in the air.
On the other hand, looking at this picture of supposed crash site, one wonders is this a turbine of a airplane that can lift 300 passengers in to the air, me thinks not, it looks way to small. This thing is a total joke from the get go:
http://www.thecommonsenseshow.com/siteupload/2014/07/mh-17.jpg
Just in case you missed the size of that turbine:
http://cdn.wonderfulengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Mh-17-crash-8.jpg
The real thing looks more like this http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/3/9/1/1557193.jpg
Given the history of US accusations against the Russians, it looks to me as though the Russians are setting a trap for the US/UK. Remember that when the U2/Gary Powers incident happened, Khruschev did not what the Soviets knew and the fact that they had both the U2 pilot and the plane. As Eisenhower sought to dispell the fact that the US had been illegally flying over Soviet territory taking photos, K. would put out another bit of information, leading Eisenhower into another lie. By the time Powers was brought before the cameras, Eisenhower had told one lie after another. Plain for all the world to see.
Obama miscalculated. He knew, as someone on this blog pointed out a day or so ago, what the truth was. But perhaps he? they? whomever-did not realize that the Russians also knew through their own technology what had actually happened.
Now they are making Obama squirm just as Khruschev made Eisenhower squirm
If you do not succeed on first try. Try and Try and Try again.
Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia, Syria, Lybia, Yemen, Central Africa, Venezuela. Have we exhausted ourselves yet?
No. Let’s try one of the big guys.
Events are unfolding:
1. Instead of negotiating, Poroshenko demands East Ukraine federalists be declared a terror organization.
When was the last time AQ had elections?
2. On the heels of Porky’s demands Zerohedge has this up:
Putin Recalls State Duma From Vacation, “Planning Something” On Ukraine Situation
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-23/putin-recalls-state-duma-vacation-planning-something-ukraine-situation
In a somewhat disconcerting move, Russian President Vladimir Putin has recalled The State Duma from a planned vacation to participate in an unscheduled meeting because of the situation in eastern Ukraine. As Ukrinform reports, sources confirm “Something is being planned, because many deputies come, probably for a quorum.” Rumors are spreading that Putin is set to issue Kiev an ultimatum over recognizing separatists or face military intervention.
Appears post mid-July is full of surprises. July 25!
Anon Mongoose
Anonymous 06:15,
I just terminally slammed that whining Israeli back on the Gaza/Donetsk post and I’m hardly going to defend any of the individuals you mentioned. However, Obama’s grandparents, mother, father and step-father were all CIA, Kerry’s father’s family were crypto-Jews but his mother comes from proud NE opium-runner stock of the WASP variety and Samantha Dearest is an Irishwoman married to a Jew. I.e., Jewish blood has nothing to do with this. Having no problem spilling the blood of others, otoh, quite clearly does. Every single human alive has that very same potential deep down inside — and demeaning anyone by virtue of what they happen to have been born, as we are seeing right now, tends to facilitate the process.
Daniel Rich, and Bobo,
It’s so nice to have something to chuckle at right now with no grimness attached!! Kudos to Bobo, wherever you are!!! ;~)
dusty,
Well, think about our info-gathering: we apparently collect approximately everything everywhere, and that’s been our main focus for quite a while. But not only are most of the DOS old-hands (who knew something about the histories/cultures involved) either long-gone now or pretty well-muzzled, we don’t put much focus on humint. Meanwhile and more to the point: just think of the sheer quantity of data we’ve collected. Then think what it might take to develop a set of algorithms to partial out, well, anything at all that might be relevant, you know, except for bribing, threatening or entrapping individuals or group members already selected for such treatment.
Anonymous 14:24
“False flags are never designed to fool the well-informed. So ‘proving’ a false flag is a false flag is an utterly futile exercise. Just ask the victims of previously well exposed false flags.
No, one very important intention of a false flag is to create a massive area of swampy ground that the so-called ‘thinkers’ of the other side willingly trap themselves in, for as long a time as possible. “
Your post makes a LOT of sense. It’s no trick question, just the same one I ask all the time: do you have any thoughts on how precisely to counter this, both in terms of challenging the official swamp-gas narrative and, much more importantly, getting out what-all is obscured by the miasma in ways that can at least start to end it?
steve button,
“It means nothing if western populations don’t hold their ZOG occupiers to account. They have to be removed from office and prosecuted for their crimes. Nothing else will do..”
Yes. And it really is up to us to figure out how, and then do it!
LOL. You can’t feel bad for professional “intelligence”.
It is their job to lie.
The fifth column: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/23/us-ukraine-crisis-commander-exclusive-idUSKBN0FS1V920140723
“Andrew said…
CDN:
If the missile was fired from UAF positions then it should have engaged in a “chase mode” and exploded at or near the rear of the plane. The damage pattern should be significantly different in this case with much damage to the rear portion of the fuselage to the tail assembly and to the trailing edges of the wings. The cockpit area should not show any evidence of missile damage.
Not true.”
Russian TV stations show the BUKs (3) as “Plan B”…if the Su-25 failed to take out the airliner, then one would have the shot.
Based on the “dots” laid out by the The Defense Ministry on Monday, the news channels are showing ex-head of Russian AF and and AF colonel who connect the dots.
1.) a BUK would blow the airliner into confetti..a snow of peices would cover a very wide “crash field”. Therefore, a BUK did NOT take ou the plane.
The Su-25 was vectored to ascend rapidly towards the airline from the side and from below, releaseing an AtoA missle at its flight apogee which then crossed the left wing on a trajectory that ended in the cockpit. Wreckage demonstrates vertical ragged rips crossing the left wing tip section and the cockpit is sprayed with penetrating holes. All consistent with the rods thrown by the AtoA. This caused the wing to break (as well as took out the flight crew, resulting in the crash of a relatively intact aircraft as evidenced by the compact debris field.
The airliner was diverted by traffic control; change of route and lower altitude so it would be a “cake” shot for the pop-out fighter (the AtoA has a 3-5k gauranteed kill range which when added to the max altitude of the Su’s flight envelope of 10,000m required the airliner to descend within esy reach.)
Saw the computer 3-D simulations and interviews with the experts on Perviya and other RuTV stations last night. Slam DUNK!
Nardami
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/07/23/is-there-a-role-for-nato-in-ukraine/
Worrisome.
Nora, yes, this site is a kind of rats nest of information and ideas all collated by hand. We use Yandex, Baidu and Google, all are really good and helpers but I’d expect specialised tools to be better. What we are doing is not even a pimple on the arse of the proper people doing the proper stuff – but that said, I tend to know about stuff 24-36 hours before the English speaking US and I have not had that time-based power before.
Years ago, before Google, I used software from Autonomy, the firm that HP bought and couldn’t figure out how to use. This software was, essentially, a web crawler, before such things existed, designed back in the days when Yahoo! worked by people sending in lists of web pages. It was more than that though. I used the first versions, before it was called Kenjin, its commercial name.
I could set a task for the bots and then a short while later back would come swathes of data. The Internet is hugely bigger now but Kenjin could do things that Google does not. It handled connections really well. I work with content and have hundreds of thousands of articles and one of my biggest chores is finding relevant content across content subject areas. Current tools work only by associating words, the best can touch on relevancy using LSI (Latent Semantic Indexing)techniques but there’s much more.
Anyway, I have no doubt that there are similar tools running now that are able to pull together strands of ideas and thought, even across languages (why do you think Google translate exists?)
So, what we do here is interesting, I have learned a lot, I have sharpened my analysis skills but give me a set of tools such as Kenjin, developed by 16 years of learning and refinement and I’d rule the bloody world!
In Moscow, In Langley, In Beijing those tools exist and are being used. In a few minutes somebody might read this post. Not because it is about Ukraine or an aircraft, but because it is about finding ideas and concepts and because somebody wrote about Kenjin and LSI on a website all about conspiracy theories and more recently the silliness in Ukraine – and that means something.
Sorry if this is off topic, but actually it isn’t. We are powerful in a way. We KNOW stuff and because of that we think differently. We probably know more than 99.99999% of the world’s population about what is going on in and around Ukraine and that means that we are annoying to the people we talk to because we assume knowledge that others do not have.
How can people make good choices absent relevant, quality info?
Nardami, slam DUNK!
While I am not sure that ‘Carlos’ is who, or what, he (or she) is represented as it is certainly the case that he (or she) absolutely had perfect access to proceedings in the control room.
The instruction to take the plane down half a click was what enabled the A2A missile to be a guaranteed kill shot as opposed to merely a decent possibility.
It is interesting that public info in respect of the capabilities of the SU25 has been downgraded over the past few days. A couple of days ago the Ukrainian manufacturers site still showed the correct maxima and the conditions under which they applied. I don’t know it that is still the case.
Oh, yes, 7,500 – 10,000m depending upon load.
Dusty…the Russian ex AF Minister claimed Su-25’s have the ablity to attain 10k for a short duration…just enough to enable the R-60 an optimal shot.
Nard
@ the pessimist
That’s an interesting article about “Carlos”
http://iouco.tumblr.com/tagged/english
I can confirm he does not have a foreign accent and he was tellig about the Malaysian plane as it was happening. Not the first time he gives detailed information in real time that then appears on the news a day later.
Here is what is coming, from my imagination maybe, but I think this will become real.
The West is desperate to not lose what they think is winnable in the Ukraine. Even if the war is not proceeding smoothly, they need more time. Troops and equipment from NATO/US will be boots on the ground shortly.
They think they have Putin bulldozed into inaction.
He will have to make a demonstration of tactical nuclear effect.
There are enough ways to demo this for the new Ambassador and for Kerry and for Obama (if he is allowed to come up out of his basement shelter and pretend he is the man in charge.)
I believe the Poles and Hungarians will push troops into the West and Kiev will receive Rangers and Paratroopers.
They can package this in the media even if backed down by the demonstration of nukes as safeguarding the democratic government of Kiev. A UN negotiation to resolve it all will take weeks.
Then they will pack up and go home. And sell more armaments to sucker Ukraine.
It will be a faux war. But it will show the world Putin is crazy. They will then mobilize a full internal destabilization politically to force him into the role of a dictator. Big money will buy the trouble they will unleash. Terror, propaganda, demonstrations, riots and sabotage.
They want isolation. They’ll kick Russia out of everything they can. G20 is next.
It’s their club and Russia is out.
The West will do this starting now. If they overtly are sending US military as advisers, they are coordinating the arrival of boots en masse.
82nd or 101st Airborne. Brits, Danes, Norse, some French, some German. It will be a party in Kiev and other key cities, right at the airports and nearby military bases.
Facts on the ground for Putin to deal with. Not moving toward Russian. Reinforcements for the Ukies. Backbone.
Re Saker’s:
“For any self-respecting intelligence official to admit such things is to commit a seppuku of your professional pride. It’s admitting that you are an amateur and a drooling moron. And here is the deal – I very much doubt that these men are amateurs or morons. So, yet again, they were back-stabbed by imbecile politicians like Obama and Power who just are not used to consulting with their own specialist before flapping their lips and nevermind if they make an entire intelligence community look like cretins.” [emphasis added]
I believe you have this backwards: it’s the politicians who have been backstabbed by their intelligence community. The intel people know fully well what happened to MH17. They let the politicians stake out a dramatic position and then pulled the rug out from under the politicians. Why? Because these are two different teams and the intel team has its own program and funding. E.g.: 90% of the world’s opium comes from Afghanistan–who do you think is making it possible to ship it all over the world? Why do you think HSBC was merely fined one quarter of one calendar quarter’s profit for money laundering crime syndicate money?: because criminal charges would have shaken the global finance establishment, which the US Justice Dept. explicitly stated and which was reported by The New York Times on the front page?
Once again, as in the supposed gas attack by the Syrian gov on its own population, the intel people knew the truth, but let the politicians take the fall.
There are a number of wars going on: Putin et al vs. the oligarchs in Russia and elsewhere, the BRICS vs. the $US, the Anglo-American zionists vs. all comers and a “breakaway civilization” (per Richard Dolan) run by the intel agencies and former Nazis with the loot stolen in WW2 that has never been recovered.
here is a link to Ukrainian SU25M1 who service ceiling can be 10k
sorry, here is the link
http://www.redstar.gr/Foto_red/Eng/Aircraft/Su_25M1.html
Re the US intelligence community. I suspect this is actually “pushback” FROM that intelligence community against Obama/Kerry’s nonsensical “assessment”. A lot of people in intelligence are still incensed over being overruled on Iraq and on the Syria chemical attack. Of course they can’t go so far as to call Obama a liar – as they would do if they were allowed.
dusty,
Actually I was referring to Five Eyes (plus Israel of course) and their impotence re: snarfing up much less analyzing anything that really matters. ;~)
But your points are even better bc of course they’re watching us. My feeling is, so what? (waves hand, HI GUYS!), it won’t matter a shred until we start to do something and we’re a looooong way from that. So every one of them reading us is NOT reading data about anything actually happening at any given time, just watching us trying our best to understand it all. I.e., they’re basically wasting their time either reading or trolling us. They’re not going to convince us, or throw us very far off-track for very long, and their average propaganda isn’t going to work on us and isn’t even tailored to us. And they’ve got no actionable data on us… because there is none.
Otoh, how many people, in Langley or wherever, ARE actually, really, truly, looking out for anything that actually could harm our country? My bet is not many at all, damn them. Any real danger isn’t going to come from the people they’ve tagged as enemies, of course, but I don’t think they’re even looking for any real danger in all those reams of data they’ve collected. And they’re certainly not looking at anything that could — or has — come from any country that actually *has* done anything to us, multiple times and in a couple different ways. Pardon my ongoing rage, but guess who.
@ anonymous above ,
Listen up people, I am no expert, but
I can tell you something that is 100%, from the video photo evidence
alone presented , on the aircraft skin, there are experts out there, they know exactly what type of warhead hit the plane, there is no
way US experts working for Obama do not know this, NO WAY .
Anonymous above, on BUK, BUK and air to air are totally different animals as pointed out, this is pin or shrapnel type warhead from
air to air, I highly doubt BUK did this and I highly doubt rod warhead did this, it is not a rod warhead, pin or shrapnel at right angle will cut, that is not rod.
Go look up basics, rod warhead designed to cut and destroy a plane, no fill it full of holes
all over. You do not need much to
take out a plane, a small air to air under wing or beside or radar homer activation, boom, plane gone.
NeoCons can and do whatever they want, nobody is stopping them.
Yes they are crazy.
” crazies in the basement ” George Bush Sr.
May God help us.
Right Wing Hellene
@ Nora,
An estimated 73% of CCTV usage [in shops/malls] is used to stare at cleavage…
Guess all those agencies [who continuously spring into action after something has happened] keep an eye on possible adversaries, so they’ve some dirt on them.
One day, Chaim Woodstockowitz noticed people came into a shop, paid good money and left without taking anything out of said shop; he called it ‘movie theater’ and moved to LA.
166have you seen this? http://www.mediaite.com/tv/cuomo-interview-with-rt-anchor-explodes-youre-supposed-to-be-a-journalist/
It’s Chris Cuomo and Peter Lavelle going at it – another MSM set-up of RT. I wrote my two-cents on Chris Cuomo here: http://themonicaperezshow.com/2014/07/23/who-is-to-blame-for-the-humanitarian-crisis-resulting-from-the-downing-of-flight-mh17-take-the-poll/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/07/23/the-growing-calls-to-strip-putin-and-russia-of-the-2018-world-cup/
http://rt.com/business/174676-mh17-sanctions-eu-russia/
Et tu Finland?
http://online.wsj.com/articles/finland-dovish-on-russian-sanctions-1406044854
As the winter approaches and the cooking and heating fuel is gradually exhausted, the discontent in Kiev and points west will rise and rise…
@ Larchmonter445
Your Devil’s advocate conjecture is very interesting.
Yet, Putin can still thwart that scenario if he acts decisively and immediately with a maximum prejudice attack on Kiev’s military capability, followed by a massive ground assault as they did in Georgia.
His current timidity is very weird, he might be a double agent.
@Larchmonter445
I totally agree with you.Only winning the war matters.We can’t get side tracked on anything else.Destroying the Kiev regime is the only way Russia and Ukraine can be safe.I hope your analysis of the ground situation is right.I’ve been very concerned lately with the Ukie attacks.But there are a couple of other pieces of bad news I’m afraid we have to deal with.Obama in a few weeks (or sooner,I don’t trust him) is sending US “advisers”.Sounds like the Vietnam scenario.And in a back door move,the Australians want to deal with Kiev to send Australian troops to “secure the crash site”.Allowing those troops in league with Kiev into the heart of Federalist territory is one more behind our lines enemy.Its a horrible idea if they get to do it.
Okey, zgadzam się !
But of course the big news here is this: the US fairy tale about Putin the terrorist … fairytailbackpack.blogspot.com