Guys,
I had a very good Sunday, finally (!) some time to relax, so I will only post this small request:
Please – read what I actually wrote, not what you think I have written or what you assume I have implied.
Seriously, I never personally took position on the Ferguson topic. I never said that I liked the policies of Helmut Schmidt, Charles de Gaulle, Margaret Thatcher, François Mitterrand or Francisco Franco or that consider them as great statesmen. As for Iarosh, I even wrote that I was willing to slit his throat, yet I was accused of being somehow favorably disposed to him (is my “throat slitting” comment invisible or something?!).
So, please, read what it actually says, if needed read it twice, but stop with this stream of outraged comments about something I never wrote :-)
Or maybe it is a cultural thing. Folks in the West like to don’t talk to their enemies. Russians do. Then we kill them, no problem. I would *love* to talk to Kolomoiski, a guy like that is certainly interesting. Saying that does not imply any form of endorsement on my part. I would also love to shoot him. Personally. First the kneecaps, then the rest, leaving the vital organs for last. And I *still* would enjoy talking to him in the process.
Maybe it is a cultural thing. Anyway, if in the future I say that I like something in a person, please do not assume that I like that person. These are two big differences (as they say in Odessa).
Kind regards and to those off for the US Labor Day – enjoy the R&R!
Cheers,
The Saker
Excellent article at zerohege: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-31/these-clowns-are-dragging-us-war
Ten ways you can tell if Russia has invaded Ukraine or not.
http://stopwar.org.uk/news/ten-ways-you-can-tell-if-russia-has-invaded-ukraine-or-not#.VAOtGWOmXpX
You are quite right. Americans have an intellectual disease whereas if you disapprove of someone, you cannot acknowledge that they might have their respective virtues or strong points. Remember George Bush Jr saying, “You are either with us, or you are for the terrorists?” No middle ground allowed!
Part of this, I think, has to do with the farce that the American media has become. Arguments ad hominem are routinely utilized, for example. And so this particular infection of seeing caricatures in place of real persons has taken root.
If someone is a cartoon villain, not a real person, why bother talking to them? And how can you praise anything at all about a cartoon villain unless you are yourself a fool?
I have found this kind of behavior in even otherwise intelligent Americans.
Saker, you make some good points and might be right about the cultural aspect, at least to a point. It seems in the past, the west talked more with enemies. Nixon to China, summit meetings with soviet and western leaders and lots of other examples.
It seems lately the west does not want to talk, just create their own self-deluded, insane and artificial “reality” I’m no psychologist, but this seems more their field. Culture can only explain a bit of it.
While I am not in favor of official capital punishment, your prescription for the likes of Kolomoisky, for example, is well-justified. Who can blame someone who prevents more of their people from being murdered by some bloodthirsty oligarch asshole?
davidius
I understand that you said. No problems at all.
But take it easy. We don’t want this blogg to disappear.
That I mean is this:
“Or maybe it is a cultural thing…. a.s.o.
@Jonny James:While I am not in favor of official capital punishment, your prescription for the likes of Kolomoisky, for example, is well-justified
Same here. Plus my feelings are definitely not Christian. So the fact that I feel like shooting the guy does not mean that I would allow myself to act on these feelings. In Christian terms the “old man” is still very much present inside me and my Christian veneer is often very thin, alas. But I am working on it as best I can.
Kind regards,
The Saker
Dear Saker,
Absolutely, one should try to know the enemy, then to complete the job of ending its existence.
Btw, i cannot swallow anybof the lot, the difference between Yarosh and Kolomoisky is that the latter does not pretend to be someone else, while the latter appears in the role of gentleman,
In any case, their days are numbered.
More worrying is guys like Surkov and co.
These are the real menace. But my reading is that they are being silently cornered.
Ah, the third front, my huntch is Transnistria and Odessa. Straight to the jugular for final secession act I, Kharkiv and Dnipro may come later.
Kind regards and never forget to take a rest.
Patagonian
Dear Saker,
Absolutely, one should try to know the enemy, then to complete the job of ending its existence.
Btw, i cannot swallow anybof the lot, the difference between Yarosh and Kolomoisky is that the latter does not pretend to be someone else, while the latter appears in the role of gentleman,
In any case, their days are numbered.
More worrying is guys like Surkov and co.
These are the real menace. But my reading is that they are being silently cornered.
Ah, the third front, my huntch is Transnistria and Odessa. Straight to the jugular for final secession act I, Kharkiv and Dnipro may come later.
Kind regards and never forget to take a rest.
Patagonian
Dear Saker,
Absolutely, one should try to know the enemy, then to complete the job of ending its existence.
Btw, i cannot swallow anybof the lot, the difference between Yarosh and Kolomoisky is that the latter does not pretend to be someone else, while the latter appears in the role of gentleman, now in panic
In any case, their days are numbered.
More worrying is guys like Surkov and co.
These are the real menace. But my reading is that they are being silently cornered.
Ah, the third front, my huntch is Transnistria and Odessa. Straight to the jugular for final secession act I, Kharkiv and Dnipro may come later.
Kind regards and never forget to take a rest.
Patagonian
Saker: we are your guests – no need to apologise or explain. If you do go “off the rails” the reaction will be less traffic on your blog. Many thanks for your insights.
@ Ghostwheel,
Who owns MSM?
Throughout the universe, everything is based on simple logic [no matter how complex it may look], only on Earth aren’t you allowed to dig for and find that logic [without the risk of being maligned or your character assassinated/your job terminated]
Guys I would like to talk to, long talks: Dov Zakheim, Larry Silverstein, Dick Cheney and so many more!
Saker,
What are you really trying to say?
I would much prefer to criticize what I think you have written and what I assume you have implied.
My arguments flow much better, I find, if I can set you, or anyone, up as a straw man (Americanism, I think, meaning fake person).
Obviously, I would like to treat comments in the same fashion, with perhaps even less attention to any facts.
A humble suggestion: why not just stick to little quotes, like the “face begging for a brick”? That’s classic but I had never heard it before so I learned something as well.
In the last thread, despite some people ignoring what your were saying, I found many comments informative. I’m thinking, in particular, of those from other countries. What might be common knowledge, I would only learn by study. So, thank you.
One last thought, Saker: if we are not allowed to put words in your mouth, then who? Are we not preferable to The Powers That Be (TPTB)? And, if not now, when?
As far as your question about an idiocy of the week, I would urge you to use your discretion. No hard and fast commitments but, if you can demonstrate some kind of lesson, why let foolishness go to waste? There is so much these days begging, begging, I tell you, to be ridiculed!
@ 31 August, 2014 23:44 On the point of talking to enemies, I found it interesting Tim Judah categorized China as an enemy of the United States. While this is not a radical statement considering China’s war planning as with Russia’s is to fight US allies (Ukraine in Russia’s case, Japan in China’s case) it is indicative of the neocon lack of restraint that everything must be presented as an all or nothing option (that binary thinking we Americans get stuck on again).
Personally I find Obama to be a moral reprobate, an even greater deceiver in some respects than George W. Bush. Who may have faked or lied about some of his college records (I’m not even getting into his certificate of birth except to say it’s weird the Hawaii director of records involved in generating it Loretta Fuddie (sp?) was the only victim of an offshore plane crash while everyone else was rescued) because he was a junior recruit in the CIA, like his much more senior grandparents who got him into the ‘family business’.
Nonetheless, Obama at least has some tinge of restraint in him. I have little doubt that if McCain or Romney were president we’d have US and Russian forces eyeball to eyeball off the coast of Odessa and on the Transdniestr/Moldovan border (or Moldova would be overrun and the standoff would be along the frontier of Romania). It’s interesting that the Economist editor Tim Judah mentioned the possibility of Russian troops besieging American/NATO forces in Odessa. Just a sick neocon imagination or a globalist scenario being presented to other globalists? My guess is the former not the latter. There must be huge fights going on behind the unified, Donald Tusk-selecting Eurocrat veneer if the Hungarians, Greeks and Slovaks are already saying ‘no more sanctions’. You can bet the long rumored (according to Dr. Jim Willie of the Golden Jackass website) ‘dump Merkel’ movement in Germany is gaining steam with the industrialists ready to throw their immense weight behind her SPD rival this winter.
Saker, and Anonymous 23:19,
That. Is. Hysterical. !!!
Lord, is it nice to be able to laugh at something for a change — and Saker, you sure do get around! ;~)
@Saker, I hear you there.
This is a difficult moral dilemma, but I believe Jesus himself would forgive a man who killed the likes of Kolomoisky in order to prevent further atrocities. It would not be vengeance but a preventative measure in extreme circumstances. Of course, some will disagree. This sort of thing has been a topic of debate among theologians and philosophers for many centuries…
If I recall rightly, Jesus himself picked up a whip and drove the money-changers from the temple, overturning their stalls. He knew the money monopolists were ruthlessly extorting the people and didn’t just ask them politely to leave. If Jesus became violent in this situation, we can only speculate and/or extrapolate what he would have done in more extreme circumstances.
The Soviets engaged the Germans (nazis) in Stalingrad not at a distance, but face to face; and when the 6th Army surrendered, the Soviets kept talking to them until the nazis mostly disappear… Russians can be your best friends… or your worst enemy, and it doest not mean they won’t talk to you. Putin constantly tells the west that he is always open to talk. Western politicians just cannot handle a direct challenge.
@Jonny James:Jesus himself picked up a whip and drove the money-changers from the temple, overturning their stalls.
Yes, but He was God. I am not.
Cheers :-)
The Saker
@Saker
lol, how very humble of you to say so!
Cheers,
Jon
Of course folks in the west like to talk to their enemies. Just ask the British. Usually what this means is they invite you a neutral place and once the pleasantries are done with they kill the people who came to talk and declare victory.. You can ask the Americans also since they killed enough native Americans who came to talk..
The only other time they will talk is when they losing and don’t see any chance of wining, in which case they will issue an ultimatum.
So before you go to one of these meetings, just make sure you place enough spies to kill everyone who walks out of the tent..
Saker– You’re physically in the US and subject to US law. I think you should touch base with a US lawyer about what you can and cannot legally say in your blog. (Pls delete if duplicate.)
Yes, Molotov, for example, did a lot of talking to enemies but that doesn’t mean he wasn’t working to smash them. Lavrov strikes me the same way though the strain of dealing with compulsive lying devils sometimes shows on his face.
There’s no shame in conversing with one’s enemies. All the better to get to know how they think. There’s also nothing wrong with admiring certain of their qualities. All the better not to underestimate them.
Russians are insightful. Their “talkativeness” should not be misconstrued as unreliability or whimsy. They are shrude and dangerous opponents. Not to be trifled with.
Compare them with the slobbering buffoons representing Canada for instance who consistent bare their arse to the world.
Better develop respect and friendship with the Russians. Showing one’s arse only invites it to be kicked.
RRH Canada
Saker, I always read and digest every word that you and Dmitry Orlov write in your blogs. It is my daily ‘go to’ for what’s happening in Novorussia. Piss on the naysayers. They are probably much in need of a little hosing down. The commentators such as Nora, I value because they actually include input that I can learn from too.
Please know that there are many more like me that never comment but we appreciate all the effort that you put into this campaign.
Except for the neverending shelling still occurring, events in southeast Ukraine are making me feel much better than in week’s past.
I feel as if these people that you fight for are my brothers and sisters.
Signed:
An Amerikanski expatriate wannabe.
(because nothing short of a financial implosion or an all out, bloody, Ukrainian style battle ibn the streets is ever going to improve things in the land of terminal hubris)
Not all of us trapped in USA, by circumstances beyond our control, are blathering idiots like the ones you are up against
@ 01 September, 2014 02:30 Saker, good answer, “But He was/is God, and I’m not”. Recently listening to a an Evangelical Christian talk radio program run out of Florida not far from where you may live, I was struck by a comment by one of the Eastern Orthodox priests who recently came on as a guest. He said that the hardest thing to do as an Orthodox Christian is to obey the LORD’s commandment to love one’s enemies and pray for them. The Orthodox priest gave the example of a dialogue between a Bosnian Muslim fighter and a Bosnian Serb fighter. The Bosnian Muslim wanted to know why the Serb was willing to fight if Jesus commanded that His followers, at least as individuals, love their enemies.
The Serb replied, I do love my enemies. Including you. But I must fight you, so that other Orthodox Christians might live. Because my LORD said, “Greater love hath no man than this, than to lay down his life for his friends.” A scripture quote etched into many a Vietnam War memorial I would think, if not at the Wall in Washington D.C.
I think that’s the appropriate answer to the dilemma of: what would you do if Kholomoisky or Yarosh was in front of you? Could you let an individual that dangerous live? I remember Pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer was also asked (and this may be of interest to the Muslims who read these threads) by one of his former students who volunteered to blow himself up with Hitler in one of the many foiled pre-July 1944 assassination attempts…whether he would go to Hell for taking his own life in order to take Hitler’s. Bonhoeffer replied that God would have to understand, that it was not an act of self-homicide. I would say it would be best to incarcerate Yarosh and Kholomoisky so they could never take another life again, but if that was not an option, then they would have to die so that others would live.
I should also add as an addendum to my previous comment about Tim Judah calling China an ‘enemy of the West’ and the US that the Chinese have not been shy about showing off their capabilities to nuke the US and take out our carriers. So I don’t particularly object to the enemy label. Even though China’s long term objective is to own the most valuable commercial and agricultural real estate in North America, not destroy it. What surprises me is the sheer hubris of neocons like Judah saying Oceania can take on Eurasia and Eastasia simultaneously, 40 years after Nixon abandoned dual containment of the USSR and PRC and settled on divide and conquer of the nominally monolithic Communist bloc. A policy originally championed by none other than George F. Kennan who understood the Chinese were Chinese first and Communists second. A lesson tragically TPTB ignored with its implications for the Vietnamese people.
The other commenter is right though about Orwell. We really do see Oceania locked in a struggle with Eurasia/Eastasia, though Eurasia has not yet been reborn in the Eurasian economic trade zone. Oceania is trying to strangle that Superman in his cradle.
@Saker: Same here. Plus my feelings are definitely not Christian. So the fact that I feel like shooting the guy does not mean that I would allow myself to act on these feelings. In Christian terms the “old man” is still very much present inside me and my Christian veneer is often very thin, alas. But I am working on it as best I can.
Excellent! ~:)
Salam,
Mohamed
@American Kulak: I remember Pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer was also asked (and this may be of interest to the Muslims who read these threads) by one of his former students who volunteered to blow himself up with Hitler in one of the many foiled pre-July 1944 assassination attempts…whether he would go to Hell for taking his own life in order to take Hitler’s. Bonhoeffer replied that God would have to understand, that it was not an act of self-homicide.
Dearest AK,
Suicide bombing is nothing but SIN. God is the Ultimate, and it is He who take cares of the Evil.
God is much, much, much Greater than Evil.
God doesn’t need our help, nor he needs us to take care of His Will.
Best regards,
Mohamed.
Saker I think posting Nora’s article about Ferguson was very good. It is a dramatically hot topic and the whole of the thread was pretty divided but still… communicating is what counts.
Now, about your blood thirsty actions on Kolomoisky…
Just think for a second about the after death situation of Kolomoisky…he goes…wherever…and quickly starts planning his re-incarnation…
Wouldn’t it be better to make him stay on Earth in a justified arrangement…no torture!!…just locked up and fed on crusts of bread…no tv….only cultural books…and only Orthodox priests for visitors…for the entire rest of his life…and then he will enter the spiritual world to pay his dues there.
I wish him long life in these conditions…and it will save you some future karma with Kolomoisky in your next life by doing it my way…
re: Talking to enemies.
When you talk to an American, you can often hear the distinct sound of a snake hissing.
Like the Serpent in the Garden of Eden, Americans are Machiavellian to the core and are unsurpassed in their ability to lie, deceive, and manipulate.
This American trait is no doubt inherited from the British, whose own talent for lies is legendary (e.g. Perfidious Albion).
Thus, Americans always insist that their empire is being (snicker) threatened by this or that enemy–even as the United States has waged wars of aggression on a massive global scale from Iraq to Afghanistan to Libya to Serbia to Vietnam.
In point of fact, it’s the United States that is an enemy of humanity–though it disguises its true nature behind deceptions about Freedom, Democracy, and other ridiculous bullsh8t.
Bottom line: talking to America is only useful as an exercise in probing the American Mind and understanding its various tactics of deception.
1/2 @ 01 September, 2014 05:08
Mohamed wrote:
“God is much, much, much Greater than Evil.”
Here we are in total agreement, and there would be no dispute between most Christian and Islamic scholars. Evil for example, only exists in the span of temporal time since the creation of Lucifer and the other angels before mankind came into existence (the Koran or perhaps it’s the Hadiths if I’m not mistaken says Satan rebelled against God because he and the angels who fell with him refused to bow down to the newly created man and woman in the Garden).
“God doesn’t need our help, nor he needs us to take care of His Will.”
On this there is a slight distinction between Christianity and Islam my friend. For in Christianity mankind is a co-creator with God. This is what it means to be stamped in His image and likeness. In Islam Allah is all-sufficient unto Himself (as is the Triune Christian God) and does not need man for anything to accomplish His purposes.
My understanding of Orthodox Christian theology is that certain things Jesus Christ and the Biblical Prophets said are bound to come, but it is up to US as to the timing of some events. This is why Jesus said for example of Judas Iscariot things would have to happen as prophesied about the Son of Man being crucified and rising on the third day, but woe unto the man through whom they came. For it would have been better that Judas had not been born. So this statement by Christ rejects the Gnostic heresy produced a few years after Jesus death that Judas was some sort of hero doing evil that the ultimate Good of Mankind’s Redemption might come. The Gospels clearly reject this heretical view, which also of course means rejecting the ‘immitizing the Eschaton’ crimes of Communism or any other man-made system that promises paradise on this present Earth.
Another more contemporary example of the interaction between Divine and human wills, are the prophecies were made about the Russian revolution many years by holy monks and priests, including St. John of Kronstadt (an island naval fortress near St. Petersburg which was then the Tsarist capital). The Russian writer Dostoevsky also foresaw the coming Revolution, but there were still junctures and decisions made by the Tsar Nicholas II in joining World War One, for example, or more likely the assassination of the bold reformer Pyotr Stolypin a few years before the war, that made the Bolshevik Red Terror possible.
Mankind in my understanding still has a choice as to the length of the Last Days, though we clearly seem to be closer now than we ever were for the past 2,000 years.
2/2
You are most correct that suicide bombing and the act of self-homicide in general must be regarded by all Christians and Muslims among the gravest sins, because suicide removes the opportunity for God to forgive a person this side of eternity.
Whether there can be mercy for those who suicided themselves in the most extreme despair or desperate of circumstances, like the Jews at the Roman fortress of Masada in ancient Palestine, is a question best left to theologans, not a lay man like me.
It is clear Jesus said whoever causes one of these little ones to stumble, it would be better if a millstone were tied around his neck and he were thrown into the sea. So that statement by Jesus sums up the Judgement awaiting those who commit the sin worse than suicide bombing, which is recruiting and brainwashing others to do it.
<>
If you a wondering where Bolshevism has gone to, look no further.
Saker,
Please don’t lump in de Gaulle along with the likes of Thatcher or Franco.
De Gaulle, for all his faults, was no fascist pig, no neo-liberal, and he hated the USA – not irrationally, but with good cause. Everything he said in the sixties about the USA (that the dollar was funny money, that the USA were a bunch of thieves who lived off other nations, that the UN was “a thing of the Americans”, etc) turned out to be true. He was fiercely protective of the French independence, and for that, the Americans tried to assassinate him various times.
He didn’t like Stalin or the Communist USSR, that’s true, but he never had anything against the
Russian people. De Gaulle dreamed of a Europe “from the East coast of the Atlantic to the Ural Mountains”.
And nowadays, the person who best impersonates de Gaulle’s vision is… Vladimir Putin, who speaks of a Europe “from Lisbon to Vladivostok”.
A perfect echo…
@American Kulak: Here we are in total agreement, and there would be no dispute between most Christian and Islamic scholars. Evil for example, only exists in the span of temporal time since the creation of Lucifer and the other angels before mankind came into existence (the Koran or perhaps it’s the Hadiths if I’m not mistaken says Satan rebelled against God because he and the angels who fell with him refused to bow down to the newly created man and woman in the Garden).
Dearest American Kulak,
The concept of satan differs in all three Abrahamic religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
satan is a noun in both Hebrew and Arabic, and it means, “adversary”. In Arabic, it could also mean, “evil adversary”.
In Judaism, an angel whose title is “satan” is an adversary of mankind. This angel is in good standing with God, as angels don’t sin and only move with the explicit Command of God. Thus, satan whenever it goes to tempt the mankind, it goes with the Command of God. In the OT, in the Book of Job, you will find the description and powers of satan.
In Christianity, I don’t have to tell you as you already know. However, no Lucifer is mentioned in OT. And BTW, Lucifer is not a Semitic name, but rather a Greek/Roman name.
Islam is same as Judaism that no angels can sin against God, nor they can act without explicit Command of God. Human is a better creation than angels. Where as, humans have given both desire and intelligence, the angels have only been given intelligence and no desire. Thus, angels are like robots and therefore inferior to mankind.
There was a jinn called, “Iblis” among the angels, who refused to bow to Adam, thinking that he was better than Adam. God wanted to expose him and the rest is history.
The only power given to satan in Islam, is the power of “evil whisper”. This “evil whisper” can be within oneself countering the “good whisper” This is similar in OT, when Jacob fought with Elohim. In Judaism it called, “Yetzer Hara” and “Yetzer Tav” respectively.
On a higher level, it is described by George Orwell in 1984. It is German War Propaganda Machine, the MSN, the CNN, the BBC ….
Thus, in Islam satan is the “evil adversary” of mankind. But satan has no power on “good slaves” of God. It is “we” who listen to satan and give power over us. satan never had any power on any of the Prophets including, Abraham, Isaac, Ismael, Jacob, Moses, David, Solomon, John the Baptist, Jesus and Mohammad, because they all are the “best slaves” of God.
Best regards,
Mohamed.
@American Kulak: My understanding of Orthodox Christian theology is that certain things Jesus Christ and the Biblical Prophets said are bound to come, but it is up to US as to the timing of some events.
There is where is the crux of the problem lies in helping God for the things to “come true”
All three books, OT, NT and Quran are subject to numerous interpretations.
In the above case, can you blame the Zionist Christians for making the Revelations “come true”?
Everyone, in his/her little mind is trying to help God for the prophecies he/she thinks God needs their help. Ticking Time Bomb!
Best regards,
Mohamed.
@American Kulak: Another more contemporary example of the interaction between Divine and human wills, are the prophecies were made about the Russian revolution many years by holy monks and priests, including St. John of Kronstadt.
No one can prophecies beside God, not even the Prophets. The Hebrew/Arabic words Navi/Nabi doesn’t mean “Prophet” in English but this is how it is translated in English language. God told certain prophecies to His Prophets, which they conveyed to mankind.
I don’t think that monks and priests are Navi/Nabi (Prophets) of God.
One, for example, or more likely the assassination of the bold reformer Pyotr Stolypin a few years before the war, that made the Bolshevik Red Terror possible.
Another good example of helping God, where He/She doesn’t need any help.
BTW, allah, ilah, eloh, elohim are all feminine nouns.
Mankind in my understanding still has a choice as to the length of the Last Days, though we clearly seem to be closer now than we ever were for the past 2,000 years.
The end time prophesies in all three Abrahamic religions are so jumbled up it is mind blogging. And, every generation have thought that it is around the corner. It has been more than 5000 years for Judaism, 2000 years for Christianity and 1400 years for Islam.
God Help us, as He/She doesn’t need our help.
Best regards,
Mohamed.
@American Kulak: You are most correct that suicide bombing and the act of self-homicide in general must be regarded by all Christians and Muslims among the gravest sins, because suicide removes the opportunity for God to forgive a person this side of eternity.
Not only it removes the opportunity for redemption it also makes the suicide bomber a “Takfiri”.
It is always the innocents who pay the price.
In Islam, God is in perfect harmony and He/She is not in constant wars with Lucifer.
Best regards,
Mohamed.
Joy,
The only way I’d even consider talking to Dick Cheney would be if he and his cronies were caged naked in an un-heated plexiglas cube on the White House lawn.
Saker 02:30,
;~) (can’t stop laughing)
Otoh, He was the only perfect person ever, so I figure He probably understands…
American Kulak 04:25,
Your words are beautiful, moving, and quite profound. Thank you for that.
Ann,
We could put him in with Cheney! ;~)
Nora @ 01 September, 2014 17:04
Nora I cannot say that I am a perfect conveyor of Orthodox Christian theology (and neither would the Saker say so). But I am glad that in some small ways to the non-believers here Mohamed and I can convey a sort of ‘dialogue of civilizations’ as it were. At the very least I have learned a great deal about Islamic Sufi or Shi’a theology and even some of what the Takfiris who are destroying so much of Iraq and Syria believe.
Mohamed, you are right to warn against the dangers of individuals trying to ‘fulfill’ prophecies themselves. Whether this played a role in the Truman Administration’s recognition of the state of Israel in 1948 with Psalm 48 being about Zion, I do not know, many Evangelicals think it was a fulfillment and that Truman himself thought so. Others have misinterpreted Jesus words about ‘this generation shall not pass away until you see the coming of the Son of Man’ which Evangelicals think means people born in 1948 will still be alive when the LORD returns to Earth, to the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem. The Orthodox Church fathers long interpreted this passage in the Gospel of St. Matthew, correctly I think, as meaning Jesus judging Jerusalem for rejecting Him in AD 33 with the Temple being destroyed in AD 70 by the vengeful Roman Emperor Titus.
It should be noted that Truman’s successor Eisenhower was not a fan of Israel, slapping them down diplomatically and making military threats to get the Israelis to back off from their ridiculous Suez operation against Nasser alongside the British and French.
My own views about the modern secular state of Israel changed gradually from growing up unquestionably pro-Israel in an Evangelical Christian household to viewing Israel like any other nation-state or government as an Orthodox Christian when I came to Holy Orthodoxy as an adult.
Mohamed is spot on to warn of the dangers of individuals appointing themselves prophets, and the ruin their followers can achieve. One can easily think of the cults of the ‘reverend’ Jim Jones or David Koresh to see tragic outcomes within our lifetimes. But the Islamic and Christian concepts of the angels and of God remain contrasts. I do agree with Mohamed that the angels or at least the evil fallen angels envy mankind. Because we have two things they do not: the capacity to repent and be saved (there is no hope of salvation for the fallen ones) and the ability to create new life. Certain angels did engage in this practice according to Genesis 6 and 1st Peter, which alludes to the Book of Enoch published some two or three centuries before Christ which was not included in the Biblical canon for sound reasons but was cited by the Apostles Peter and Jude. There is also the episode in the Book of Jude mentioning a battle between satan and the holy Archangel Michael (who is also revered in Islam) over the body of the Prophet Moses. We don’t know the nature of this heavenly dispute but it is clear in Christian theology God’s unseen hosts are at war with satan and the fallen ones and have been since before the temptation and Fall of Man and the Creation with Adam and Eve.
@American Kulak
self-homicide in general must be regarded by all Christians and Muslims among the gravest sins
I disagree with every fibre of my being.
As someone who has experienced such a loss, of an immediate family member, I can tell you every situation has its own special circumstances.
The people who made it most difficult on our remaing family were Christians with precisely this attitude.
Until you experience it directly, you don’t have any idea nor should you judge — not ever.
AK,
As an Episcopalian reaching towards Orthodox Christianity and just wishing I could find a church we could attend even occasionally, I’m not exactly an unbeliever :~), but there’s so much I still don’t know. I’m really curious though: did you grow up with the Scofield Bible?
@American Kulak: But the Islamic and Christian concepts of the angels and of God remain contrasts. I do agree with Mohamed that the angels or at least the evil fallen angels envy mankind.
Dearest American Kulak,
Thanks for you excellent reply. However, maybe I was misunderstood, as I never even tried to imply that the angels envy mankind. The angels CANNOT envy anyone as they don’t have desires. Here is the Islamic view of Creation.
Malika: Bad translation in English as Angels. They are created from “God’s light” and thus they are ONLY GOOD. They don’t have DESIRE, therefore they cannot sin. No desire to sit, to stand, to come first, to succeed, to compete, to cooperate. NO DESIRE AT ALL. They are workers for God and like ROBOTS. The higher ones are messengers for God, this is what meant by Malika.
Jinn: Bad translation, “I Dream of Jeannie” and the “Jinn who grants 3 wishes”. The Jinn are created from “fire”. There are good and bad jinns like humans. Good translation, “Extra Terrestrials”. Iblis who was a bad jinn and was with the angels had desires for being the “head of angels” and “become immortal like angels”. God exposed him.
Ins: Translated as humans in English. Ins are created from “clay”. If you put the “Jinns and Ins” on a 360 degree circle like “Day and Night, you will perceive umpteen of creations between “Jinns and Ins”, like umpteen degrees of brightness between Day and Night and umpteen degrees of shades between Night and Day.
Best regards,
Mohamed
@American Kulak: There is also the episode in the Book of Jude mentioning a battle between satan and the holy Archangel Michael (who is also revered in Islam) over the body of the Prophet Moses.
Dearest American Kulak,
I used to corresponds a lot with a good Jewish friend in USA. Both TaNaKh (OT) and Quran are written in the Semitic (same) language, where as NT is written in Greek/Roman language, a entirely different language. Thus, the TaNaKh into OT was translated by the Rabbis for the Roman. At that time, one could not read the Hebrew language (due to lack of grammar) and thus the TaNaKh was memorized by the Rabbis. From this memory the translations were made.
Also, there was hardly any writing material such as ink and paper. Imagine the concept of 70 translators and then the comparison of these 70 massive, massive documents.
The old, old Arabic is same as new, modern Arabic. When the Quran was descended there was no written grammar and proper written letters. Therefore, the proper Classical (Quranic) Arabic was created. From this proper Classical (Quranic) Arabic the proper grammar was inserted into TaNaKh (OT) between 12th to 15th century and Hebrew was revived from Arabic during 19th century.
The old saying that, “Mohammad got his stories from Bible and mostly got it wrong”. Remember, Mohammad was a Semite like both Moses and Jesus. The Jews believe that the Christians stole their TaNaKh and made into a thingy called, “Old Testaments”. The Jews don’t have this concept called, “Old and New”.
Thus, the Jews believe that the Christians (Romans) stole their Scripture and got it all wrong. One can see the reason for so much rivalry between Jews and Christians over the centuries.
To conclude this, my Jewish fried agreed that Moses was not wrong, but the Jews around him were trouble makers and for this reason they were punished for forty years. He also agreed that the Jews with Moses were “Cow Worshiper”. Refer to Second Chapter of Quran called, “Cow” and the story of “Golden Calf”.
He attributed their nasty behavior and cow worshiping, them being in slavery for a long, long time. I told him, “good excuse”. ~:)
Best regards,
Mohamed.
Nora !
Now that this thread is so passe’ its not going to be read by anyone..
I agree….Cheney is another one. but truly…if there is an angelic world where human beings go when they die…which is what I believe….what can the angelic world do with those criminals…? NOTHING !! So those horrible examples of humanity don’t go into the true spriritual worlds…they do some suffering in…wherever….and then they come back here…
Those criminals – Nazis and so forth – need to be dealt with here…in a humane but justified way.
Imagine two different scenarios … Kolomoisky goes immediately into the angelic world but they can’t do a thing with him because there is nothing in him which they can connect with…and then he reincarnates…
Imagine he spends the rest of his life in solitary on bread crusts and no electronic media at all…only cultural books…and two visits per day of 1-2 hours an orthodox priest that is humane with him in conversation…then he goes to the angelic world after several decades of this life…
He would have better connections with the angels after the second example…and then he reincarnates….