Foreword by the Saker: Over a year ago, I posted an interview with Nebojsa Malic, a Bosnian-Serb who know lives in the USA. In my introduction to this interview, I wrote the following:
I understand that the topic of war in Bosnia might reopen old wounds for some readers and I also understand that some might categorically disagree with Nebojsa Malic’s point of view. To those readers I would say two things: the war in Bosnia left everybody wounded, not just one group. As for what lessons can be learned from this war, they might be painful, but they are also important because of the undeniable fact that what happened in Bosnia was the blueprint which was subsequently applied to Kosovo, Chechnia, Libya, Syria and the Ukraine. I would very much welcome another point of view on this topic, especially one from a supporter of Alija Izetbegovic. If somebody is willing to share such a point of view here, I would be delighted to publish it.
And today I am doing exactly that. Thanks to the kind efforts and courage of Ahmed, I can now post a direct reply to Malic by a Bosnian-Muslim. Ahmed is clearly a well informed person with strong views, and he is not blind to the generally (but not unconditionally) pro-Serbian and Orthodox outlook of this blog. And yet he did trust me to post his reply in full and for that I am immensely grateful to him.
The fact that I post Ahmed’s article today does not mean that I “endorse” what he says. In fact, some of what Ahmed says about Serbs and Orthodox clerics makes me cringe. In one specific instance – Srebrenica – I even categorically disagree with this presentation of the facts. But so what? It is *precisely* because we disagree that our dialog is valuable.
Some of you will disagree with Ahmed and I understand that. But I don’t think that anybody can deny that his reply is extremely well-written, his opinion frankly presented and his point of view well substantiated. If there is ever to be a reconciliation between the people of Bosnia or, more broadly, between Muslims and Orthodox Christians, then the very first condition for that is to listen to the other side honest and blunt views. And I also fully agree with Ahmed’s view that no reconciliation is possible without establishing and recognizing the historical truth, no matter how uncomfortable or painful this might be. Real pluralism is to listen to opinions we don’t like, not only those who are an exact copy of our own.
My hope is that a Bosnian Croat will one day do what Malic and Ahmed did, and give his/her view of the Bosnian tragedy.
For the time being, I want to warn everybody that I will accept absolutely no ad hominem attack, no insults and no cheap shots at Ahmed or what he wrote. Even if the moderators will be tolerant, in this case I will personally keep and eye on the comments and send any disrespectful ones to the trash bin.
The Saker
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Response from a Bosnian Muslim
Reading the interview with Nebojsa Malic again and again, I tried to find any sentence, any word, that would to some point admit any mistake or failure on the Serb side during the events which took place in the Balkans more than twenty years ago – and kept this region somehow unstable until today. Unfortunately, it was no surprise for me not to find anything like that. A whole text on how everything seems to be “Alija’s fault” reminded me very much of standard Serb nationalist blubbering, or as a Serb song says “I don’t like you Alija, because you’re a Balija (an insulting name for a Bosnian Muslim, used by Serbs and Croats), you’ve destroyed a peaceful dream“.
This is with italitcs and this without
Further, even the comments-section and other texts on both blogs (Vineyardsaker as well as Mr. Malic’s) gave me much more reason to doubt in any model of real peace between the nations (and we must add: Faiths), without solving some problems as pretext to this peace, from the first bulges of the Karawanks to the historical area of Macedonia.
To start where Mr. Malic like the majority of his fellow Serbs fails, it is: to give a critical review on – and therefore to question – “the own side”, isn’t as hard as it may seem. There are several points a Muslim from Bosnia simply has to admit.
First: in general, the domestic policy, is an abysmal failure and has been an open cancer-wound in the past years. Every party, from SDA to the “Social Democratic” SDP to all the patriotic/liberal etc. parties, have been nothing more but a giant tick, sucking the very last Mark out of the country. Very little has been done for the citizens and very much for several politicians. In fact, Bosnia today resembles more of a country for retired people from the West, returning “back home”, and corrupt politicians, as it has ever before.
Second: any mixture of “Religion” (in the Bosniak case: Islam) and “Politics” backfires! Many Ulama, or Islamic scholars, worldwide, have raised concerns over this topic. (For further information: Shaykh Buti in the recent Syrian conflict and similirar)
The question on how and why Islam and (today’s) Politics should be separated would go beyond the scope of this text. I will try to sum it up as much as possible. (Everybody with an increased interest on this topic is free to search for lectures from accepted Islamic/Sunni scholars).
The political and socio-ecological systems we as Muslims (in the Western Hemisphere) live in, demand acts of politicians, ministers, officials and so on, up to normal citizens, which simply contradict the rules of (Sunni)-Islam. Bringing Islam into “(Western) Politics” is like mixing fire with water. It might function to a certain degree with special additives and devices, or in this case we might say “when we subtract certain rules out of Islam”, but it definitively has nothing got to do with the original source any more. That is why until today, there is no unifying or truly “Islamic Political Party” anywhere in the world. In an even more complex manner, countries with more than one “Islamic Party” will witness fiercest fights on different levels amongst members of each side, which will go beyond any prescription of Islam. And to add fuel to the fire: they will contradict the prophetic tradition and example of the very first Islamic State – if I may call it so – the one of Medina al Munawwara, even more, concerning the (religious) minorities inside the country. In the best case, they might ignore them and deny them more rights, in the worst case: take a glance at ISIS!
Third: we as Bosniaks know very well that Alija Izetbegovic was no saint, and everything else but flawless. We are aware that he wasn’t a political genius and that, as others described it, “he got stuck inside a role which was beyond his capability“.
As I make this statements, I simultaneously raise one important question: What was/is the alternative?
Fikret Abdic, Adil Zulfikarpasic, Muhammed Filipovic etc. were mentioned in the interview as far as I recall. Many more names come up as one tries to search for “alternatives”. As many as there may be, as easy it is to debunk almost each one as proxy for either the Serb or the Croat Nationalists interest in Bosnia and Herzegovina. From the Bosniak perspective, anything else but Alija Izetbegovic, as bad or good as he may have been, doesn’t make sense and rises concerns and questions.
Why do I have my concerns and doubts – and share them with many Bosniaks (or let’s say: I still haven’t met anybody with a fundamentally different opinion)? First, one – or maybe the main – problem is the difference of opinion on the origin of Bosniaks (as the Bosnian Muslims like to call themselves).
Mr. Malic refers to Serbs as “natives”, a very arguable claim, but not a point of discussion in this text. The crux between Serbs and Bosniaks starts here. Oversimplified, the main idea amongst Serbs – no matter if radical or liberal, attached to the Orthodox faith or “worldly oriented”, male or female – is that the Bosniaks aren’t a nation by themselves, but are merely Serbs, who changed their faith in favour of the Ottoman (Muslim) occupant, while they themselves are the very aboriginal people of the Balkans. Every discussion beyond that is simply marked as bogus, fantasy and so on.
As former Sarajevo University dean, Dr. Biljana Plavsic, Karadzic’s successor as Premier of the so called “Republika Srpska” parastate and “Orthodox intellectual” insisted, that “it was genetically damaged Serb material which passed over to Islam”, giving pseudo-scientific support for a thesis deeply rooted in Serb religio-political mythology. Or let’s take Dragos Kalajic for example, a religious nationalist, artist, philosoph, “Orthodox intellectual”, who argued that Bosnian Muslim culture was alien to this areas, as what he called a “semi-Arabic subculture”, caused by a “genetic predetermination” which the Bosniaks inherited from the Ottomans, and which “in fact originated in North Africa”. Even the famous Patriarch Pavle, like his admirer, the militia leader Zeljko Raznatovic, argued throughout that the Serb nationalist claim to Bosnia was based on the fact – as he believed – that the Muslims were “interlopers from the East, and were not indigenous to the region“. Hence he (P. Pavle) believed that “Serbs must fight, now as never before“.
Tough words one might say. They do not represent an extremist minority amongst Serb nationalists or their opinion, but are the thought, believed and lived ideas, represented by the politicians, artists and religious leaders of an ethnic group! It gives an answer to the question how Fikret Abdic could’ve been an acceptable alternative. Or if there is a possibility of a Bosniak Kadyrov like in Chechnya.
Let’s forget everything we know (and think to know) about Abdic. What difference does it make to follow him or anybody else like him, since he is the same “traitor of race and religion” to the majority of Serbs like any other Bosniak? Until Fikret doesn’t become Filaret, it will stay so. From this point of view, a Bosniak Kadyrov will be applicabe for illiterate peasants, like Abdic until today is indeed. And though many Bosniaks might be the least attached to their faith, they won’t change it under the circumstances and pseudo-intellectual theories mentioned above. Who would?
Another thing that is more part of assumptions than it is of mere facts is the role Abdic himself played before the war during the “Afera Agrokomerc”, the affair around Abdic’s “life-time project” as he calls it, and at the very beginning of the war in Bosnia in 1992. I will not go into theories which have no proof or backing of significant relevance, there are simply some questions I raise that can’t be answered without putting Abdic into a bad light without taking Izetbegovic into concern. The first is: how was it possible, that during investigative custody, Abdic received private packages of food and medicine in a communist country, already being led by Serb nationalists, where nobody else, before and after him, was allowed to receive anything similar? What was so special about him? How was it possible that a thug and criminal like him could profile himself as national hero, while any other imprisoned Muslim, Serb or Croat, prior or after his case, had not the slightest chance like him?
Another interesting fact is: How comes that a Bosnian Muslim Politician of his rank, was able to come all the way to Sarajevo, all the 350 kilometres from Velika Kladusa, by car, in May 1992, in a country that was blocked entirely by Serb militia, or JNA in corporation with Serb militia? How comes he was able to get back to Velika Kladusa, and have not a single incident during his travels, while Alija Izetbegovic couldn’t make the few kilometres from Sarajevo airport to the seat of government without being taken hostage, interrogated and his convoy being shot at?
He resigned from the presidential chair, that’s right. But if it was due to differences with Izetbegovic’s ideas on how the future Bosnian Republic should look like, why hasn’t he mentioned a single time anything like that? He’s not giving any hints at all about infighting or that his “enemies” did something conspirational against him. Even when asked by Serbian television after his prison release few years ago, why he resigned and went back to Velika Kladusa, if there were any signals to do so, he simply answered: “There was no signal at all….No one accepted to be director general of Agrokomerc. It was impossible to be president of the country and director general of the company at the same time….I wanted to show everybody that Agrokomerc wouldn’t cease to exist”. This topic is clearer than bright daylight, whoever wants to continue with theories about deception through Izetbegovic, power struggle inside SDA and so on, is acting at one’s own risk. Simplyfied: This man was an ambitious businessman who let himself be used for nationalist interests, unfortunatel for him he took part of the other side, for nothing more but a big stash of money. In other words: a simple traitor. That’s what he will remain to the majority of Bosniaks, until the end of all times. Had he been that giant economical and political genius as many followers of him tried (and still try) to convince everybody else, there’d be a northwestern part in Bosnia with no unemployement, blooming and prosperous – he’s still allowed to have his own political party inside Bosnia, his own companies and so on. What he does is what he was doing since ever before: defraud people of their money and lining one’s pocket. Even his own followers started to leave him (his party, the DNZ split up into two different parties of which one is being “rehabilitated” through the SDA into political life), and the families and children of his soldiers suffer until today from the stigma to be part of betrayal. His influence is diminishing every day.
The other two, Zulfikarpasic and Filipovic, are easier than Abdic. There are several feasible reasons why Izetbegovic got rid of them. First, the late 80ies and early 90ies were a period of purge from Communism, in Muslim, Orthodox and Catholic circles. Both were figures from a past that had lost its place in the future. While Izetbegovic got arrested and sentenced, and after that being supervised by the Secret Police, Zulfikarpasic was appointed Deputy Minister of Trade, while Filipovic was honoured by the city of Sarajevo in the 70ies. It is true that Zulfikarpasic lost his conviction about Tito’s Yugoslavia very early and exiled to Switzerland. But his plans about a “historical union between Serbs and Muslims” showed that he had no idea what was going on inside the states of Yugoslavia.
Had their ideas (and I still try to give them the benefit of doubt concerning their plans, while Serb nationalism reached peak-point long before the negotiations!) yielded fruit, the extinction of everything and everyone which is non-Serb would have passed in such a silent manner, that Europe and the West would’ve had less concern about it than they were during the war. Which brings us to some other crucial facts standing in the way to peace between Bosniaks and Serbs:
“Meanwhile, he entrusted the head of the ulema, Mustafa Ceric, to “Islamize” the Muslims in line with Izetbegovic’s 1971 declaration, even to the point of importing Wahhabis and “Afghans” to serve as missionaries” (N. Malic).
It is incredibly amazing, how far self-deception, excess and audaciousness can push a person! One of the most disturbing features of the Bosnian War from 1992 until the end of 1995 was the widespread refusal to acknowledge the role religion played in the war. It was – and still is – only mentioned, when it comes to the Muslim side. The reality, which was frequently one of militant Christian extremism, is until today, swept under the rug.
(Before I go on: YES, there has been a unit of foreigners, called “Odred el Mudzahid”, a group of Wahhabi Takfiris from around the world, fighting alongside the Army Of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Yes, they have done terrifying acts like beheading Serbs and Croats, torturing their victims and everything we now see from ISIS-henchmen. And Yes, they are criminals that needed to be expelled from the country a long time ago. But: their number isn’t as high as Serb and Croat politicians want us to believe. The unit never consisted of more than 1000-1200 men, the majority of them left as the war ended (If we take the Situation in Syria and Iraq as an example, we get to know that the so called Islamic State started with a total of 16-17.000 soldiers – how would the Balkans look today, if there had been more than 10.000 very well armed and battle-scarred “Mudzahedini”, as Serbs and Croats claim?!)
On arrival, they already had the idea in petto to fight the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina too, as they – in their eyes – were the same infidels like the Christian Serbs or Croats! Not a single one of them was called by Alija Izetbegovic or any Bosniak Politician into the country! And ask yourself this question: they weren’t dropped off by planes or helicopters into their operational zone, Central Bosnia, they came by car or bus. They had to cross either Serb or Croat borders to get to their final destination – in some cases several times. WHY ON EARTH would Serbian and Croat soldiers allow foreign “terrorists” to enter and fight them? How do I know? A very close, late family member was one of the spearheads in this unit, that’s how!).
While talking about foreigners: isn’t it still amazing and interesting, how many talk about few houndred “Mujahideen”, while no one mentions the houndreds of Russian, Ukranian, Greek, Macedonian, Romanian…soldiers and mercenaries, which came to “help their Orthodox brothers”? Is one side here without doubt the bad while the other seems to be absolutely good? Who’s whitewashing who?
This war was first and foremost an intensely religious experience for its Christian participants, especially for the Orthodox. We all tend to forget that while 8.000 Muslims have been pushed into mass graves at Srebrenica, the victorious Serb General Mladic, after offering a glass of champagne to the local UN commander, went off for church to pray. Or when we look at the video shots from the Scorpions, who are being blessed by father Gavrilo, shortly before killing children and young civilians.
Especially Muslim POW and detained civilians were forced to show the three-fingered hand gesture, representing the Christian trinity, sing Chetnik songs, being poured with beer or hard liquor or having the cross carved into their skin with knives by their Serb guards. While this pattern reoccurred in any place in Bosnia and Herzegovina, the unsystematic and sporadic tortures and rapes that unfortunately occurred amongst “Muslim” warriors, were spared of religious symbolisms.
Captured Serbs had to sing songs praising Izetbegovic or Bosnia, but there is not a single report that shows any systematic appliance of religious abuse by Bosniaks.
Serb propaganda about how the Muslims were ready to turn Sarajevo into another Teheran, inside the very heart of Europe, went so far that foreign reporters asked Bosniak Army commanders, while they were drinking hard liquor and smoking pot inside their barracks, if they are fighting for an Islamic State, while on the other hand they simply ignored every proof of Orthodox (and Catholic) chauvinism right in front of their eyes, given to them first-hand by Serb clerics and politicians.
The Church itself regularly thundered against ‘enemies of God’ who would not join the struggle for a Greater Serbia, and official Church journals were a leading forum for Draskovic and other radical ideologues advocating the dream of a ‘Greater Serbia,’ and the destruction of the ‘disease’ of Islam.
A further tell-tale sign of the involvement of the church was apparent when, in 1994, the Geneva Contact Group tabled its new partition plan for the country. Under this plan, the 32 percent of Bosnians who were Orthodox were awarded 49 percent of the land, including many formerly Muslim areas which had suffered ethnic cleansing. But the church was unsatisfied even with this: Metropolitan Nikolaj of Sarajevo demanded that Sarajevo itself should be incorporated into the Serb-held areas. The argument he gave, which was supported by Karadzic himself, was that since the city’s majority Muslim population was supposedly descended from Serb converts to Islam, the city naturally belonged to Orthodoxy. This idea of the Bosniaks as ‘bad Serbs’ who should be guided by Karadzic’s ‘warriors for Christ’ back to the Orthodox fold (or face expulsion, or worse), lay at the rhetorical core of the debates in the priest-filled Republika Srpska parliament in Pale.
The Episcopal Synode in Belgrade declared about the concentration camps, in which Non-Serb citizens were imprisoned, tortured, raped and executed: “In the name of God’s truth, and on the testimony from our brother bishops from Bosnia-Herzegovina and from other trustworthy witnesses, we declare, taking full moral responsibility, that such camps neither have existed nor exist in the Serbian Republic of Bosnia – Herzegovina”. The bad “Semi-Arabs” have deceived the whole world again! Every detainee, thousands of innocent people, including several family members of mine, have made up stories about concentration camps, in fact independent and disconnected one from another, but somehow miraculously with the same stories and patterns about maltreatment…
Again, when a new peace plan was on the table, the Church showed itself more radical even than Milosevic. Pavle, Amfilohije and others insisted that the Belgrade strongman was scandalously weak in+906 upholding the Serbian right to territory. Bishop Atanasije of Herzegovina “urged Serbs”, as he said, “not to capitulate to the world as Milosevic has. The vultures from the West will not get our signature.” Examples of this could be multiplied; but the general picture is, I hope, clear. Another big question is: when generation after generation of Serb children up til today 1 are raised by their parents to detest “Turks” (Ottomans) for being occupied by them, and when the same parents teach their children the above mentioned about their Muslim neighbours, what can you expect from a society when the youngsters grow up?
So the second and much longer part would be connected to the first one I mentioned. Not only are the Bosniaks deprived of the right to define themselves as an independent nation, their religion and culture are seen as hostile, alien and sick.
What’s the connection between Izetbegovic, Zulfikarpasic and Filipovic here? Why was Izetbegovic the best choice for the Bosniaks? Did he “save the Bosniaks from extinction”? Was he “advised by US politicians”? Why was he primarly against Dayton? Well, first it was Izetbegovic who correctly – long before any trigger was pulled inside Bosnia – recognized and related the signs he was getting from Serb nationalists and politicians inside and outside the country, which at the start of his political career had already reached peak-point and made up the majority inside and outside Bosnia. Secondly, he refused any partition of Bosnia up to the very end of the war, where he was forced to sign Dayton and sell it to the Bosniaks in a time where military advance was rising. Could’ve he “have it without war”? Maybe. But why on earth would he sign any partition, when not a single part of today’s Bosnian soil had been called “Serbian” since the Middle Ages?! Why should’ve he give up big parts of the country for chauvinist demands? A “Republika Srpska” as it exists since Dayton won’t get rid of the genocidal taste in a thousand years, even the Serb citizens realise that, while any other form of a Serb country, without war, would resemble a present of immeasurable value to somebody not worthy the sand-pit in the park!
Zulfikarpasic, Filipovic and co. weren’t simply aware, at this time, what was going to happen, if they hand out the Bosniaks voluntary to the Serbs, conjoining them in a “Third Yugoslavia” as they called it. The biggest and most severe mistake Izetbegovic and the SDA-cadre made was to believe that there will be no war – and if, the West would shurely intervene as quickly as possible. My father recalled a SDA meeting before the war started, when an official was asked by a concerned citizen, “how we are preparing ourselves, since the Serbs are getting the gross of the JNA weaponry, military equipment and most probably the majority of logistical and personnel support from the JNA?”. His answer was short and simple: “We have the Democracy and the police on our side, no one can harm us”. The epic failure which Bosniak politicians made couldn’t be summed up better in less words!
Without question, Izetbegovic’s ability to evaluate the capability of a minister, official or similar, was beyond good and evil. Looking at the answer mentioned above, it seemed to be a general deficit inside the SDA. Nevertheless, he understood the situation with the Serbs and Croats better than anyone else.
As for the question on “how he was advised by US officialls”, be it true or not, there is a simple answer: there was no one he could’ve turned to, no one to give any beneficial advice. Did he listen to American advisors? Possible. Did they trick him and the whole nation into war? Definitively no! Serb militia and serb-led JNA forces had already shown their real face inside Slovenia and Croatia, they were up to war before the whole country de facto began to fall apart, as Milosevic alluded in his Kosovo-speech in June 1989 “Six centuries later, now, we are being again engaged in battles and are facing battles. They are not armed battles, although such things cannot be excluded yet.”. Only few received the message, and only a hand-full amongst them tried to take measures against a possible threat.
Another evidence for the war being planned and schemed by the Serbs are the numerous warnings Bosniaks received from their very Serb neighbours to leave their towns, cities, villages…before the day of attack, or otherwise face expulsion, abasement and death. Like in the case of my wife’s family, such warnings have been ridiculed and repelled with the words “Why should anybody kill me? I didn’t harm anyone!”. Unfortunately, in her case, the Muslims of Kulen Vakuf, a small city near Bihac, experienced another genocide and expulsion through Serb hands in mid 1992, while family members disappeared in massgraves, who, at the time of their death, have had their hands tied and were shot in the back.
The strongest indications for a designed scheme, how to extinguish everything non-Serb in this area, is simply the combination of hard evidence found in Serb literature, lectures and speeches combined with acts and deeds during wartime. Many Serbs, from simple workers to highly educated personnel, owned Ilija Garasanin’s “Nacertanije” for example. There have been too many “coincidences”, independent from one another, to call the ejection and killing, rape and torture of non-Serb population a “coincidence” or “situational acts”. Some remembered Serb friends and neighbours, telling them “coincidentally” exact the same stories while being drunk, on being given advice, how to dissolve possible resistance through “works in peace through generations”, to get closer to the “great Serbian dream”. Sounds pretty much like conspiracy theories, but: one drunk hobo telling you about the city center being burned down might be “drunk-talk”. But when many drunk hobos start to chatter one and the same story, you might start to believe there is something true about it.
Why was Izetbegovic vehemently against any peace agreement during the Dayton-negotiations in 1995? Contrary to the Croat-Savior-thesis, where it is said that the Croat offensive inside Croatia and Bosnia freed the Bosniaks too, stand some simple facts. The 5th Corps ABiH (Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina) was a natural cushion between the SAO Krajina (Serb held territories inside Croatia) and the 1st Krajiski Corps of the VRS (a special unit, founded by General Mladic himself to defeat the 5th Corps, especially the 505th Brigade, and thus, as he said “break the backbone of the Muslim Army”) and Abdic’s troops. Had the 5th Corps been defeated , the Serb Armies inside Bosnia and Croatia could’ve joined and become an unstoppable force for the Croat defense. The outgoing of the war for the Croats depended very much on the behaviour of the Bosniaks inside the Bihac-pocket.
On the other hand, the Bosniaks aided actively with men and material during the Croat operations inside Croatia in 1995 (one of the famous officers of the 5th Corps, the late Izet Nanic, is said to be killed in action on Croat soil). They got artillery-support during their own offensive from the Croat forces in return. That has nothing got to do with “saving” but is simply the result of one’s own effort.
The Bosnian Army was in artillery-reach of Banja Luka towards the end of war. Special units of the 17th Krajina Brigade ABiH made it inside the airport of Banja Luka and started with acts of diversion. Serb population inside Banja Luka was prepared to run and leave everything to the advancing Bosnian Army. In Prijedor, members of the 7th Muslim Brigade were as near as the Sana-Tex factory at the western-entrance of the city. Big and important cities in Serb held territory were about to fall. Kljuc, Sanski Most, Bosanski Petrovac; Bosanska Krupa fell completely into ABiH hands, Drvar, Mrkonjic Grad and Jajce into the ones of Croat allies, Donji Vakuf and other cities in the area of central Bosnia were conquered, to sum it up: the Serbs were on the run when peacetalks began. As Richard Holbrooke remembered, Serb president Milosevic had begged him almost on his knees to stop the advance of the ABiH and HVO inside Bosnia – what the West did. After three years of fierce fights, a real military victory for the ABiH seemd closer as ever before. Plausible reasons for Izetbegovic to get mad at every attempt to stop the advance!
I had to chuckle when I read (I don’t know anymore whose blog it was), that the Serbs came out as moral, political and military winner of the Balkan wars in Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo! Not even Hollywood is able to market their loss in Viet Nam as a victory, as the Serbs are able to sell theirs in the Balkans. There is not a single Orthodox community of distinctive number in Slovenia, not to mention any Serb diaspora; the Croats expelled the last Serb from Croat soil in 1995, turning Banja Luka into an exile for Krajina-Serbs; the Serbs in Bosnia had thought to finish the war in three weeks, but were unable to achieve anything real after more than three years – the fourth-strongest Army in Europe couldn’t deal with a horde of furious peasants armed with deer-rifles! The first “Tank Brigade” in Sarajevo consisted of one (in numbers: 1!) single tank; everyone is free to google how many Serb tanks occupied the city! If it hadn’t been for American intervention and threats to bomb the Bosnian Army (Bosniak soldiers confirmed me in personal talks that US Apache helicopters stopped and threatend to shoot at them while they advanced to Prijedor), who knows how the war would’ve really ended? That’s everything else but victorious to me.
Did Izetbegovic save the Bosniaks from extinction? Yes and no. As mentioned before, the best job he did was to realize who his opponents were and not to trust them at any cost. That’s why he will still remain a thorn in the eye of Serb interest in Bosnia and Herzegovina for the next couple of decades. His actions crossed any plans of a relatively silent “expansion” of Serb territory. If one doesn’t understand that Serb nationalism from the 80ies and 90ies of the last century wasn’t going to cease without any bloodspilling, one will never understand the full reasons of his actions without the need to choose fiction over facts.
The last point I want to approach is the attitude every side has towards everything that happened. It is a big stone on the road to reconciliation. The vast majority of Muslims is without doubt accepting the fact that the life of an innocent civilian weighs more than anything else in the world, no matter which religion, nationality or skincolor one might have. It has to be saved and held sacred.
The problem between both sides is of different nature. No sane Bosniak with an atoms weight of braincells is going to accept that every party in the last conflict was on the same level concerning how the war started and who started it. That has nothing got to do with Izetbegovic, Islamic radicalism, hatred for Serbs or anything else. So one of the strongest preconditions for any kind of peacful and rational talks between Bosniaks and Serbs is the acknowledgement that in 1992, there has been an attacker (Serbs) and a defender (Bosniaks). Everything else beside acknowledging this is indistinct jibber-jabber to Bosniak ears.
The second problem is the way the (Pro-)Serb side handles Muslim war casualties. If Srebrenica is mentioned, the names “Oric” and “Kravica-massacre” shoot out as a Chili-supper does in the next morning! (YES AGAIN! Unfortunately Serb civilians have been killed by Muslims as retaliation acts during the war. It is a shameful act and a sin of unbearable weight! And not even one million dead Bosniaks justify the killing of one innocent Serb. The killers aren’t heroes and should be punished as hard as possible! Maybe that’s a positive difference for the Bosniak side: never has any Bosniak politician declared that Serb victims shot/shelled/injured themselves while defending the own criminals who did it! I mean, Karadzic is until this very moment trying to convince everybody in Den Haag and worldwide, that it was the Muslim Army that shelled and occupied Sarajevo for years). The killing of one single innocent human being doesn’t justify the death of another and so on. We can’t go on and spin the circle forever. As long as the Serb side doesn’t acknowledge the destruction of almost 300 Muslim villages around Srebrenica, the expulsion of over 70.000 Muslims into the city of Srebrenica from the area around the city, causing it to turn into a Ghetto with not enough food, water, pharmaceuticals, electricity, simply: the basic needs for a normal life for all, shelling it, killing innocent civilians, and all of this alone in the months between April and June 1992, what’s the point of discussing why and how some Muslims snapped and did what they did? Srebrenica is just one small town. What about Kozarac, Prijedor, Bijeljina, Trebinje, Sanski Most, Bosanska Krupa, Bosanski Petrovac, Kulen Vakuf and so on? What about the massgrave of Tomasica in the area of Prijedor? There was no Naser Oric in this place to “organize Muslims to kill Serbs”! Each time someone seriously complains about Serb victims resembles a person with a severe concussion ranting to a terminally ill cancer patient, with half a lung and no arms and legs, how life sucks when your head hurts and that you wish to die. Again, my utmost respect for every victim, independent of race and religion, but as I said: terminally ill (Bosnia) vs. head-concussion (Serbia) is a very very big difference.
Enough damage has been done and not one but many generations are filled with disgust about their neighbours, family-members and friends, that’s something where I agree with Mr. Malic but beg to differ that it was again, Izetbegovic’s fault (By the way, this guy really had no hatred for Serbs – he and many of his companions declared themselves as Serbs during Yugoslavia; mostly of the reason to honour their neighbours and keep ties close).
What can the future bring to such a country? As I stated, it looks like it is terminally ill. Yet I remain optimistic about a positive outcome, since the situation has been many times worse through the last 150 years than it is now. The Qur’an states that “Indeed, Allah will not change the condition of a people until they change what is in themselves”, and this seems to be the very recipee for a positive solution in Bosnia, concerning everyone. Is there any real chance for peace in the future? Most definitively yes, but under certain preconditions mentioned in the text. Everything besides that is a waste of time and far away of being authentical, giving reason to fear an outbreak of old patterns in near or far away future.
Nationalists tried their best in the early 90ies, on each side. There are documents which prove an intern deal between a small group of Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks, to “clean” their rows from other nationalities. Everyone with an army-rank higher than a simple recruit was sent home due to “safety reasons”, if he had a different national background than the Army he was fighting for. It’s these irrational divisions between ethnical and religious backgrounds, that split the people and cause more and more trouble. It is not excluded that the same forces, up to this day, fuel the fire of national hatred.
Is it so impossible that a Serb activist pays a Serb citizen with no income to “vandalize” an Orthodox church, so he can blame Bosniaks or Croats for it? Is really every act of vandalism in mosques the deed of Serb or Croat nationalists? Politicians who are in charge and who benefit from national hatred won’t probably have that high moral standards not to use “small false flag operations” inside their own communities to secure votes… independent of their religious or national background! Maybe the near future will tell – like it did about the deal of 1993 mentioned above. It’s up for the simple citizens of the Balkans to change on the inside before they can expect change on the outside!
Ahmed was born and raised in Austria of Bosnian Muslim origin, son of a founding member of the SDA in the diaspora, activist against Wahhabi influence in his community. He has active personal ties and connections to his fatherland until today in connection with travels and exchanges.
Since he’s a Bosnian Muslim in Austria. I wonder if he can shed light on the radicalization of Bosnian Muslims there – going to Syria and joining ISIS, al-Nusra, etc. This includes some Bosnian Muslim teen girls from Austria who went there too.
And now we have a Bosnian Muslim committing this violent act. So what is going on in Austria?:
Austria: Graz car attacker liked dozens of FB pages proclaiming devotion to Allah
https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2015/06/22/austria-graz-car-attacker-liked-dozens-of-fb-pages-proclaiming-devotion-to-allah/
ISIS/ISIL is the monster given birth by American Christians and Israeli Jews. The brainwashed Sunnis youth by the Saudi propaganda are destroying Muslim resistance to Jewish occupation of Arab Palestine by Europe’s “unwanted Jews” – by killing Arab Muslims, Christians and Druz.
Isn’t it strange, ISIL/ISIS fighters are treated in Israel – and the so-called “Islamists” refuse to help their fellow Sunnis Palestinians against Israeli Jews.
Steven Kelley, former CIA contractor told Press TV last week that United States created ISIL/ISIS and other terrorist groups operating in Syria, Iraq and Lebanon to destroy all resistance to Israeli dominance in the region.
http://www.irna.ir/en/News/81657650/
Which American Christians ?
@ Ahmed,
Thank you for your article. To speak out, takes courage. I respect that.
The way I see it, is basically very simple [as am I]; in order to move, I have to get my brain to move one leg forward, and that means, the other stays behind.
Fortunately they work together and that results in me, getting places.
Only through diversity and differences, will their be true beauty.
brain/leg => their/there :-)
Too many stereotypes and official western propaganda in Ahmed’s writing to dispute it in a comment. A few things are important:
– Number of victims in Srebrenica was never confirmed by an independent forensic study. Why are Western powers and Bosniaks against independent investigation if they are positive that number of victims is “over 8000” as claimed. Book “the SREBRENICA MASSACRE, Evidence, Context, Politics, Edward S. Herman and Phillip Corwin” disputes that number many times over (http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-srebrenica-massacre-evidence-context-politics/25112).
– In Srebrenica execution Serbs spared women and children and executed only man that they thought are responsible for crimes in Serbian villages around Srebrenica. Efraim Zuroff, director of the Simon Wiesenthal Center’s Israel office claims that “calling Srebrenica a holocaust is absurd” (http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics.php?yyyy=2015&mm=06&dd=17&nav_id=94472)
– Bil Clinton promised the intervention to Izetbegovic if there is a “massacre with over 5000 killed” and sure not long after that Srebrenica happened with “over 8000 massacred”. This Norwegian documentary puts light on American meddling, and detailed sequence of events that led to what is in fact was revenge for war crimes by Naser Oric’s bandits in Serbian villages around Srebrenica.
Western war against Serbs is part of wider geopolitical war against Russia. Serbs are regarded as “small Russians” in the Balkans, and as such they are subject to genocide for the last hundred years. From First World War when Serbia lost 40% of the population (basically all male population), and genocide in what is Croatia today where Serbs constituted almost half of the population before WWII, and are today couple of percents of mainly older population. Milosevic warned that “once the wild western beast is finished with Serbia, Russia will be next” which is what is happening right now. Maybe that was our role, to sacrifice so that we wake up sleeping bear and warn him of coming grave danger. Bosniaks, Croats, are just the cannon fodder (similar to Ukrainians) in the big geopolitical game, and should stop whining because it is by their choice that they decided to be slaves to the Anglo-American empire against their brothers. As for us, Serbs, a few of us still breath freedom, even though new quisling government working on mass brainwashing. We will always fight for the truth, justice, and freedom until they get rid of us too.
great comment anon… Ahmed…I’m going to print your article so I can read it carefully.
@ Antiglobalista: Just to add another facet to your analysis: I remember when Clinton was wondering what to do to help Sarajevo. This was in the middle of a Republican revolt in Congress and they were blocking him no matter what he did. If he advocated airlifting supplies to the besieged citizens, they would have blocked it. From what I remember, he finally did an end run around Congress and through diplomatic and “other” channels enabled Muslim soldiers from as far away as Turkey or possibly Iran to enter the region and fight back.
What a mess. I don’t think Western meddling did much good. Some lives were saved, others sacrificed, and the trouble there still remains a festering sore on the world politic.
If you watch carefully the documentary “Srebrenica the Town Betrayed”, it is clear that it was carefully staged trap for general Mladic. Naser Oric was provoking Serbs with ISIS style crimes on Serbian villagers, and had 5500 fighters inside Srebrenica. Yet on a day when general Mladic walked into Srebrenica with 400 of his soldiers (and sixteen hundred backup local Serbs – who movie said he didn’t trust because they were not very disciplined) there was no resistance from Bosnian side. Bosnian side had more than double fighters and somebody gave an order to abandon Srebrenica and try to break the siege on the other side, knowing fully well that if they will die if they try to break the siege. And that is exactly what Izetbegovic wanted to get promised Clinton’s military help (5000 massacred Bosnians). If Bosnian forces fought back from fortified positions it would have been much more difficult for Serbian forces to win and they would have many more casualties, which would then be much more difficult to manipulate into “genocide”.
Some facts on Bosnia and srebrenica in particular http://www.emperors-clothes.com/ Jared Israel covered the wars extensively.
I have a good idea for a headline for this article: “How we keep the Cult of victimhood alive”
For a short moment I thought of writing a reply by going line by line and pointing it out, but I know it’s pointless. It’s the “bloodthirsty-serbian-crusaders-killing-everyone-and-creating-greater-serbia” story again…
Here you have all these articles in one place, so you don’t have to go all over the Internet to find out just how great a Serbia those evil Serbs wanted to create:
https://greatersurbiton.wordpress.com/
It’s even called ‘the Greater Surbitron’ in case you miss the overall theme of the site. :) A great fiction writer nevertheless.
Every now and then we must be reminded about the ‘victim status’ of Bosniaks. As many myths are falling apart (just like the Srebrenica myth), they feel the urge to tell it again and remind people how these events should go down in history. In little less than a month Bill Clinton and Angelina Jolie (among others) will come here to remind us once again how evil we are.
Propaganda worked in short term, but in long term you still didn’t bury the truth. It must feel terrible that 20 years of lobbying in the west and brainwashing in the MSM still didn’t change history. This is why now they are trying to pass a resolution in EU and in UN that will forever seal topic of genocide and make it illegal to deny their version.
But why wait a whole year to post a reply like this? You could’ve just copy-pasted a story like this, they are pretty common. There are professional propagandists that sell these stories almost daily in Serbia and abroad – like the famous Kandic – Biserko duo.
thjis comment seems to be hard and cynical and unsympathetic…I guess you also think the African boat people should be dealt with by not letting them come ashore ? Sorry, I probably should keep out of it, because as it was happening, I didn’t even know it was happening over here is North America…but hard anger isn’t going to solve problems of any kind. Do you think Ahmed is a puppet of the Z/A’s ?
Why would I not want to let Africans come ashore? What’s funny is that as we talk here, Hungary is pushing for a wall project that will be on a Hungary-Serbia border. (something similar to ‘great wall of Ukraine’) Reason? They say too many Africans and Arabs go through Serbia. :) So, no, I don’t think others shouldn’t be allowed into country…
As for this article, it is the ‘history’ we got from BBC and CNN for the past decade and more.
And he clearly states:
“Is there any real chance for peace in the future? Most definitively yes, but under certain preconditions mentioned in the text. Everything besides that is a waste of time and far away of being authentical, giving reason to fear an outbreak of old patterns in near or far away future.”
In other words, there can be peace if you say that what I wrote is true.
Sounds like someone is hiding behind words ‘peace’ and ‘reconciliation’ while pushing agenda.
And what is Z/A? Anglo-zionist? But In any case, I don’t think anything like that…
dear Mr Cyrillic…C backwards N H backwards N W a…I’m sorry I said what I did about the African boat people. I’m glad you would let them ashore….I have absolutely no understanding of the Bosnian Serbian thing except what I learned from Saker’s podcast about it…can’t remember which one…maybe #4….anyway…you sound like a great person. Sorry.
Hi Ann, no need to say sorry about anything. Yes, my response to this was ‘hard and cynical and unsympathetic’. That was my first and genuine reaction to this article, as I see it as a collection of insults. “It would be all nice and dandy, only if you Serbs are not chauvinistic genocidal clerofascists.”
And this ball-throwing between ex Yugoslavian republics makes little sense, at least to me, as this civil war would’ve never happened without active and intense meddling from outside. (USA, GB, GER, FR) During the whole crisis, they only added a fuel to the fire, with the hopes of achieving exactly this – us going at each others throats forever.
As for those people that have to flee their own countries now – it’s another sad story. They didn’t see a dime from all the wealth and resources that are taken from them.
And, Синиша Sinisha.
Best regards.
Hi Sinisha !! thanks for comment. I wonder what to do about it ?
To do about what? The reconcilement thing? I don’t think anything can be done now, at least not until balance of powers in the world isn’t restored. Or at least until ‘The New British Empire’ loosens it’s grip on the world. You see, common folk here will easily get to terms and live in peace. And that’s how it works in most places here – those who wanted, continued with their lives and wish no harm to their neighbour.
But the thing is, these kind of settlements are not left to representatives of people to resolve them. Every incident, every crime is politicized and turned into another leverage to further divide people. And for people that represent these commissions, NGOs etc. it’s very profitable to keep exploiting it.
If you are from USA, a close example of it would be Al Sharpton – a race hustler that lives from making division in the community.
We are ants fighting each other, under the boot of the colossus, which is the current global empire run by the 1%ers.
@ Ahmed is a puppet of the Z/A’s
But what else? If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. It is the endless, manic anti-Christian vomit of the zio-muslim alliance.
Africans are committing crimes by coming in those lands illegaly. Do you understand that? How do you treat criminals – by welcoming and pardoning their crimes, or enforcing the laws? And why is Saker letting you moderate this site? You are clearly not fit to such a task.
I don’t believe in borders like that…the Africans are being driven out of their own country by A/Z corporations…and by this time in the life of our world we should be able to live anywhere we want…being territorial is for dogs. And I didn’t like the phrase ‘victimhood’ … it does sound hard and unsympathetic. But as I said, I don’t understand anything about the Bosnian Serbian problem…so I’m sorry for what I said to our Serbian friend.
Ann, I hope you understand that in places like Senegal, 40% of the population would happily jump on a boat to Europe or push their kids into one if they had the chance.
How many illegal migrants does Europe have the means to support? Half the continent is already suffering from 10-20% unemployment.
The majority of those Africans currently are Libyan. Hey, you broke Libya, you bought it–and that includes its citizens. You owe them. If it weren’t for NATO, Libya would still have a government, a social safety net, rights for women, cheap education, good health care, the list goes on. Instead because of you they got squalor and militias fighting interlocking civil wars, and all of a sudden, surprise surprise, they want to leave. You bloody well asked for it. It’s not like the Europeans were laggards in the “bomb Libya into a regime vacuum” operation, if anything France was far more gung ho than the Americans.
Many of the other African refugees are from places which have been destabilized by, wait for it, terrorists and weapons from Libya. Which, again, would not be a problem if NATO hadn’t insisted on destroying Libya.
If Europe doesn’t want refugees all over the place, just maybe they should stop collaborating with the Americans in producing them.
Why do you try to smear the African refugee crisis on our Serbian friend?
Come on Ann.
I absolutely agree.
Missed to post link for Norwegian documentary – Srebrenica a Town Betrayed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvqHWS_4AuM
Hi Ahmed…well, I’m reading it now…I don’t understand what you mean by this sentence…”It gives an answer to the question how Fikret Abdic could’ve been an acceptable alternative. Or if there is a possibility of a Bosniak Kadyrov like in Chechnya. ”
What does Kadyrov have to do with it ?
You should ask Mr. Malic for a response to this nonsense otherwise i dont see the point in publishing the same drivel that still infect the western MSM. “Ahmeds” point of view is that of the victor in the war, Washington’s and Berlin´s and therefore everywhere.
To be fair, I don’t think there were any victors in the Yugoslavian civil wars (at least none that lived inside the former Yugoslavia).
The victors are those who instigated the war and decided to split up and destroy Yugoslavia
http://www.globalresearch.ca/milosevic-test-your-media/2110
Those are in order, Germany who designated this as its first foreign task as a united nation (i.e to disintegrate and destroy another), the USA, George Soros who (with help from CIA) created Otpor and the first of the infamous colour revolutions and their local clients of outright fascists/Nazi´s like Tudjman and izetbegovic and their gangs of death squads.
ou should ask Mr. Malic for a response
Not only Mr Malic. Any person, Croat, Muslim, Serb or other are invited to reply. I can tell you that at least two people have already told me that they will :-)
Croats will be pleased to hear that you think they are idolators.
how the mujahedins came to Bosnia? the USA imported them for your use… in their planes…
you dont think someone is going to get a bus from Iran do you
There was no good solution to the Bosnian mess, even in the hindsight.
Pointing fingers, looking for the guilty party, is therefore pointless.
“A “Republika Srpska” as it exists since Dayton won’t get rid of the genocidal taste in a thousand years” . .”
And yet the percentage of Muslims ( 2.2% ) in Republika Srpska is nearly identical to that of Serbs ( 2.3% ) in the Muslim part of the federation.
So Bosnian Muslims did not want to be citizens of a remaining multi ethnic but predominately Serb Yugoslavia but expected Bosnian Serbs to accept that same position in a predominately Muslim Bosnia despite a living memory of the genocide of hundreds of thousands of Serbs in Bosnia and Croatia at the hands of Nazi allied Bosnian Muslims ( “Bosniaks” ) and Croats only forty seven years earlier between 1941-45?
No thousand year memory for Serbs permitted, obviously.
I agree with Mataj, that there was no simple solution to the mess that was Bosnia, not even in hindsight. Too many -ists and -isms gathered in a very small place. The only thing that saddens me is the story about all peoples of Bosnia coming together to protest against any fighting, and then the snipers shot…
I was born there, and to dispute the thesis that “Serbs started the war” – I do remember running from Al-Kaeda, from my village, even though it was May 1992.
Like today’s Ukraine, nobody wanted war in Bosnia. But, after some encouragement (read: Al’Kaeda pointing a gun to your back so you go kill the infidels/subhumans/whatever – I’m sure there was an equivalent on Serb side too, I just don’t know about it) the shooting started and there was no turning back afterwards.
Sorry, but do you expect now to debate whether the Serbs
1. really planned the war or
2. the bloody Serb nationalism from the 80ies and 90ies that was the main problem or
3. the genocidal taste of Republika Srpska
What is it about Ahmed’s view we have not heard from the CNN already? I heard that again and again and I hear it still buzzing from the tv.
I see no room for a dialog here. Those are all non-issues for anyone who wants to use reason. For others, all that is left now is to dismantle the Republic of Srpska. They are pushing that agenda all these years, with Empire, again, at their side and are adding fuel to it as we speak. We are not aiming at undermining their autonomy in Bosnia and Herzegovina. We are not pushing to take Sarajevo again (which has done away with Serbs who were 30% of its population), we lost it (to Muslims and their world power alies) along with other teritories. After Deyton, we decided to stick with what we got. But they again and again pick on Banja Luka and insist on bringing an end to our autonomy. But hey, that is not wrong and contrary to peace, because Serb autonomy tastes of genocide.
I’m sorry but I quit reading the article the moment Ahmed called the Republic of Srpska a “parastate”. What Bosniaks and Croats fail to see is that their countries that arose out of the ruins and ashes of Yugoslavia may some day be ruins themselves. How can the Republic of Srpska (Serb-ruled part of Bosnia and Herzegovina) be a “parastate” and Croatia or Bosnia and Herzegovina are not? What makes Bosnia or Croatia God given and Yugoslavia or Serbia not? Why are they an axiom and Serb lends are not? Because The Empire of Evil says so? It just does not work that way
What’s good for the gander must be good for the goose too. Oh, I know: Bosniaks will prevent a dissolution of Bosnia and Herzegovina by murdering a third of Sebs, forcibly Islamising another third and ethically cleansing the remaining third – something that Croats were allowed to accomplish with a huge help from the “democratic” West and Wahabee crazies of Saudi Arabia. First heads that got cut off were heads of Serbs in the former Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina which was its former name when it was part (emphasising PART) of Yugoslavia. The Net is chock-a-block of that stuff: Google “Vozuca”. Serb heads literally rolled, cut off by Muslim terrorist from all over the place sent into ex-Yugoslavia to do Empire’s dirty work.
What a pile of lies and propaganda. Even if you posted oofficial Western media narative, it would have contained less propaganda than reading some Wahhabi “truths”. And if you post those ideas you don’ agree with, why do you have Western liberals moderating your page? Have you not noticed that intelligence value of comments here have considerably gone down lately? Perhaps you shoud stop posting garbage or let everyone post what they want here. It ain’t woth to be a hypocrite.
And there is no “people of Bosnia”. There is people of Republic of Serbska, people of Herzegovina and people of Bosnia. Those 3 people, nations and their belonging lands comprise Western colony called Bosnia and Herzegovina. Why are you refering to just one of 3 constitutive people there?
@the Serb nationalist claim to Bosnia was based on the fact – as he believed – that the Muslims were “interlopers from the East, and were not indigenous to the region”
A very long (and tedious) post to tell us what we were told so many times since twenty odd years. Nothing new in that. But what made it downright ridiculous (and reflects upon the whole “rationalization” of the situation) is the fact that “Ahmed” seems to believe that the Muslims are the natives of the region, that Islam preceded Christianity in the Balkans and that the Ottomans also were the true natives of the Balkans (like the Albanians!!).
I do not think that this kind of ravings (however much appreciated by some naive commenters) would help any dialog.
I would especially like to point the readers to this part of the text:
“Was he “advised by US politicians”? Why was he primarly against Dayton? Well, first it was Izetbegovic who correctly – long before any trigger was pulled inside Bosnia – recognized and related the signs he was getting from Serb nationalists and politicians inside and outside the country, which at the start of his political career had already reached peak-point and made up the majority inside and outside Bosnia. Secondly, he refused any partition of Bosnia up to the very end of the war, where he was forced to sign Dayton and sell it to the Bosniaks in a time where military advance was rising. Could’ve he “have it without war”? Maybe. But why on earth would he sign any partition, when not a single part of today’s Bosnian soil had been called “Serbian” since the Middle Ages?! Why should’ve he give up big parts of the country for chauvinist demands?”
Please judge for yourself who is the chauvinist here.
Take a look at the history of that geographical region, geographical name of the regions and rulers it was under and its people. Ahmed seems to recognise the fact that the territory was under Serbian rulers in Middle Ages, but misuses the fact that Serbs were not sovereign there in period of Ottoman and Austro-Hungerian rule, both of which they protested and struggled against in that and other regions they lived. But the struggle ended succesfully with reunification with Kingdom of Serbia in 1918. The Kingdom of Serbia later evolved into “Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes”. (so yes the soil of Bosnia and Herzegovina was officialy called Serbian even in the same century, but more importantly it was for centuries inhabited by Serbs).
And keep in mind there were no “Bosniaks” as ethnonym, as todays muslim people of the region and as of very late choose to call themselves (in Yugoslavia and during the war they were Muslims with a big M, which from Tito on stood as a name of the people, prior to that they were muslims with a small m which is a name for adherents of islamic religion – in serbian confessions are written with smallcaps, so also christians and all other). No matter how they choose to think of their history (that is another topic), it is obvious they are denying ours.
They are also quite silent about the fact that on the eve of the war there were 3 gruops that recognised themselves as people with separate interests and claim to the land: Serbs, Croats and Muslims. Nota bene: ALL three groups SIGNED a deal to partition the land and escape war, the Carrington–Cutileiro plan (the Lisbon Agreemen), but than Izetbegović withdrew his signature. Here is a copy from WIki:
“On 18 March 1992, all three sides signed the agreement; Alija Izetbegović for the Bosniaks, Radovan Karadžić for the Serbs and Mate Boban for the Croats.
On 28 March 1992, after a meeting with US ambassador to Yugoslavia Warren Zimmermann in Sarajevo, Izetbegović withdrew his signature and declared his opposition to any division of Bosnia.
What was said and by whom remains unclear. Zimmerman denies that he told Izetbegović that if he withdrew his signature, the United States would grant recognition to Bosnia as an independent state. What is indisputable is that Izetbegović, that same day, withdrew his signature and renounced the agreement..”
Now please, go back and read the part of Ahmed text I quoted.
Perhaps we can agree on this: the war started when the Empire’s ambassador, a certain Mr. Zimmermann, told Izetbegovic: “You do not like the peaceful settlement agreed to in Portugal. In that case, why sign it?”
Unfortunately, after war starts, everyone misbehaves.
Ahmed,
I will limit my comments on two things:
1. You say that Serbs deny the Moslems the right to see themselves as a nation. This is plane and simple not true, Serbs only do not buy this made up parallel history, not supported by a single historical fact, but we don´t have to, or? Rest assured Ahmed, that most Serbs are more than happy not to live with Moslems in one state. This way, you can blame only yourself for dysfunctional society you have created. No Serbs around to support your parallel history with their tax money, these times are gone.
2. You are essentially saying that Muslims in Bosnia are entitled to have their own state, eg. declare independent from Serbia, but are denying the same right to Serbs in Bosnia. 2 (two) million Serbs in Bosnia (which is more than some favorite NATO countries) should not have the same right of self-determination, eg. unite THEIR part of Bosnia with Serbia. In accordance with your suprematist ideology, you are telling us that two sets of rules apply: one for Muslims (self-determination) and another for Serbs (no self-determination).
This suprematist attitude is the Turkish heritage, enriched by service of your people with other genocidal aggressors, Ahmed. I don´t want to be rude, Ahmed, but from my Serbian perspective, this siding with whoever is a stronger aggressor, is a born-servant attitude. No, indeed, Serbs do not want to be associated with you, whatever you want to call your nation. We are different indeed.
Regards, Rosa
PS
It will be difficult to overcome the the old grudges between the Orthodox World and Islam. But we must succeed if we want to present a united front against Europe and the West. The same is true for Africa and Asia.
ANON-… Mr. Kadyrov in CECHNYA is proof there is possibility to live in peacefull coexistence between orthodox & muslim faith….
Not only there. On Ramadan Moscow’s streets are filled with Muslims offering prayer. Muslims and Orthodox are brothers.
Saw this today.. Vewy interesting… by Dan Steinhart
Dear Casey Research Reader,
In 1979, Steve Jobs got a chance to visit a super-secret, Pentagon-sponsored computer lab outside San Francisco. What he saw inside stayed with him for the rest of his life…
This lab had already invented personal computers, Ethernet, modern word processing programs, and clickable icons. A highly caffeinated Jobs was given a tour of the facility. He was amazed at what he saw. No one else in the world had this stuff. He bounced around the room like a little kid, according to the lab tech who escorted him. When he saw the man clicking simple icons on the screen, sending emails and using a mouse, he started cussing with excitement.
He called it “the greatest thing” he’d ever seen.
Jobs took the technology directly from this lab to help create Apple’s first personal computer, the Macintosh. Apple’s shares gained 4,364% over the next 11 years… Now, it is the richest company in the world. Microsoft used tech created in this same lab to help build its empire. Its shares gained 59,302% in just 13 years.
Xerox PARC was a R&D company not “a super-secret, Pentagon-sponsored computer lab”.
And what has Steve Jobs to do with the former Yugoslavia?
Dear Ahmed
Today we know that all the problems and tensions in Yugoslavia were carefully orchestrated and all the politicians and “leaders” back then were nothing but puppets, jumping and jerking with someone outside pulling their strings.
The big picture is to put NATO on the Russia’s borders. All your people were just caught in the Western machinery that is aimed to destroy Russia. You are pointing fingers at each other and refusing to look West and to see the real perpetrator.
Now, after watching The Kosovo Exodus http://rt.com/shows/documentary/268561-kosovo-nato-intervention-serbia/
I read your article with sympathy, and this is what I understood: your people (not you) live in a miserably failed society, because some guy ate something in jail 30 years ago and drove 350 kilometers, and the Ottoman empire had something to do with it. That will remain to the majority of Bosniaks, until the end of all times…
Frankly, I can see some issues with this national program.
The question is, do you people want to live in a functioning society, or not?
If not, keep it on and on. If you want something better for your people, you might consider some working solutions.
Remember: No matter what people say, they always fight over the money.
Problem:
1 Financially engineered capital flight and failure to reinvest into their respective countries. Free capital flow has only benefit supra-national bankers syndicates;
2. religion should be separated from a state and from the politics;
3. keeping the “historical truth” in front of each other is a sure way to keep ongoing conflict in an “open wound” society. Splitting political hairs and endless rehashing of the same soup warmed over won’t get you anywhere.
Solution:
1. By all means to stop capital outflow and to reinvest into the national economies and into people. Socialism has some very good ideas, like free education and medical care for all children.
2. Keep religion and religious leaders away from the front seats of policy making;
3 If you look hard enough, you’ll always find reasons to be miserable, so stop looking.
Pretend that nothing had happened. Unite society to work to improve the economy.
If you like the US… Look at the basic rules of the US ruling class. The W.A.S.Ps (American upper-middle class protestant families) use some helpful tension diffusing technique.
A W.A.S.P. woman’s husband is not a miserable alcoholic. He’s a theology philosopher working for 25 years in the basement translating ancient manuscripts.
A W.A.S.P. woman daughter is not a prostitute living with her pimp to save money to buy more drugs. She is a talented musician in love with this sweet Puerto Rican boy.
A W.A.S.P. woman’s son is not a raving maniac with a confederate flag on his back, walls in his room painted with black swastikas, and a collection of assault guns under his bed. No. He is just looking for a job.
No matter what, they pretend that everything is fine. They keep a stiff upper lip. They don’t confront each other with accusations. They keep performing their domestic routines like having family dinners, and having friends over, and paying bills and running businesses. The key behavior for them is to never discuss anything negative. And it works.
Consider looking into the Belgorod region development strategy implemented by the team of the Russia’s Academy of Science economists including Sergey Glazyev.
http://www.savchenko.ru/article/2974.html
http://www.savchenko.ru/article/3008.html
Their plan works perfectly and can help to bring any region anywhere in the world to prosperity.
Good luck to you…
Amen.
Scott,
I don’t who you are, but you are one talented guy, I have rarely read anything so witty as what you wrote in this posting. I am in stitches, especially due to your portrayal of WASP family culture and philosophy of non-confrontation.
I am going to cut and paste it, print it and stick it on my office wall. It is one of the funniest (and true) things I have ever read.
You truly are a highly talented guy.
I don’t know the formula for this site but it truly attracts some brilliant people.
I haven’t read this yet, but one comment of Saker’s in the intro speaks volumes about his ideological commitments, biases and prejudices: “If there is ever to be a reconciliation between the people of Bosnia or, more broadly, between Muslims and Orthodox Christians…”
The fact that Saker believes that Orthodox Christians can be “reconciled” to Muslims, but that they can NEVER be reconciled to fellow Christ-worshippers, the Catholics, should cause those of us who believe in Christ to pause and reflect on what the Saker is actually (if implicitly) saying by absolutely denying the possibly of reconciliation to Catholics but holding that there is such a possibility of reconciliation with Muslims. It is very sad that the Saker has developed this huge blind-spot in his thinking due to simple irrational (and hateful) prejudice.
the Saker has developed this huge blind-spot in his thinking due to simple irrational (and hateful) prejudice.
Wow! What an ignorant comment to make. Simply, irrational and hateful prejudice?
Let’s look into that.
1) Last time I checked no Muslims have ever claimed that they are lead by an infallible Vicarius Christi who is literally in charge of the entire universe as a deputy for God.
2) Last time I checked, Muslims don’t have an uninterrupted and systematic 1000 year old history of trying to convert and subjugate Orthodox Christians.
3) When is the last time Muslims attacked Orthodox Christians? 1453?
4) Muslims never tried to pretend like they were the true Orthodox Christians, the true original Church or any such nonsense. They never denied the reality of the profound theological differences between Christianity and Islam. Muslims never lied to Orthodox Christians or created some “Eastern Rite” to disguise themselves as Orthodox Christians. I very much disagree with Islam’s teachings, but at least I sincerely respect Muslims and the Islamic culture.
5) With the notable exception of the Ottomans, Orthodox Christians and Muslims have mostly lived in peace pretty much everywhere. The Papacy and the Church have *NEVER* lived in peace. As we speak, Chechen Muslims are dying in the Donbass in defense of Orthodox Christians whom your Uniat Ukronazi brothers are trying to quite literally genocide!
6) Last time I checked, Islam was never centralized into one unified worldwide network and I never suggested reconciliation between Orthodox Christians and ALL the various branches of Islam. In fact, I don’t believe for one second that any reconciliation (or even coexistence) is possible with the Wahabi/Takfiri freaks.
Your comments speaks tons about your own ignorance and arrogance. Did you ever bother asking yourself WHY Orthodox Christians have ALWAYS had a much better view of Islam that of the Papacy? Do you really believe that we somehow were all born as Islamophiles? Or might that have something to do with our 1000 years of experience of your genocidal hatred of us because only we can denounce you for the fraud that you really are?
If anything your comment proves my point. Yes, there can very much be reconciliation between Orthodox Christians and Muslims in those places where these two religions were conned into fighting each other. But there will never be reconciliation between Orthodoxy and a heretical group which makes claims of worldwide dominion in the name of God and which, like the Mossad, always operates by way of deception and violence. Even your own name “Roman Catholic” is a double lie since your religion is most definitely NOT Roman and even less so Catholic!
they can NEVER be reconciled to fellow Christ-worshippers
Stop worshipping the Pope and start worshipping Christ and His commandments and we will take you seriously again.
The Saker
“When is the last time Muslims attacked Orthodox Christians? 1453?”
Indeed. If only Serbs would listen to your words of wisdom and stop claiming otherwise.
The Serbs were not attacked by “The Muslims”. They were attacked by the AngloZionists who *USED* Muslims for their purposes. That is very different from a religious attack by Muslims on Orthodox Christians.
The sad reality is that the AngloZionists successfully pitted Orthodox Christians and Muslims against each other, just as they are now pitting Shia and Sunni Muslims against each other or Russian and Ukrainians.
But yes, I would not call the war in Bosnia a “Muslim attack” on Serbs.
Saker, if you believe the last time Islam declared war on Orthodoxy was 1453, then you are woefully ignorant on your own history. But, in point of fact, you are not ignorant and rather it is pride and myopia (your myopic obsession with the evil of Catholic people and the Catholic Church) that make you blind to inconvenient facts and history. Please see below:
http://www.fr-d-serfes.org/orthodox/memoryof.htm
http://www.saintjonah.org/islam.htm
You are conflating Islam and the Ottomans. In the history of Islam, the Ottomans are the exception, not the rule in contrast, the numerous Papist “crusades” against us were the rule, not the exception. But even the Ottomans are preferable to the Papists, hence the popular saying in Constantinople “‘better the Turkish turban than the papal tiara”. I agree with that. Even though the Ottomans were by far the worst Muslims in history, even they treated Orthodox Christians better than the Papists.
I repeat: Muslims or, more accurately, Islam as such has never had an agenda of subjugation, conversion or genocide towards us. The Papacy has *always* had it.
Just see this precious poster: http://orthodoxinfo.com/images/readyset.jpg
In fact, read this entire article: http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/vatican_russia.aspx
You might learn a little something about how Latins have treated Orthodox Christians in Russia.
I tend to agree with Ezra. Sure, Anglo-Zionists have been using Bosnian Moslems and Albanians, but they were more than eager to go ahead with butchering Serbs. They would and will do it again. Turks are claming brazenly Serbian lands, and you are saying what? – that Turks are not “real” Muslims. Do not understand. If you are supportive of Serbs, you should be supportive of the right of 2 million Bosnian Serbs to unite Republika Srpska with Serbia (7 million), not publish genocidal rubbish calling Republika Srpska names. And all this in a situation when we are facing destruction of Republika Srpska. Do you have an idea Saker what this destruction would mean for the small Serbian nation? We are not Russians with nuclear potential and 150 million people.
Yes, but the Croats were just as bad (if not worse) and with them we supposedly share the christian religion.
I totally agree, Croats, favored by the West, especially Germany, were as bad as Moslems in terms of butchering the Serbs, even worse, but the published text comes from a Muslim.
@ Saker
I wouldn’t mention that precious poster if I were you. It’s already been proved to be a fake.
Exactly!
Yes Saker, Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia.
“Stop worshipping the Pope” – you’re a bigot, Saker. Pure and simple. I could just as easily say to you, “stop worshipping little statues of Saints” – but I know you don’t do that I I wouldn’t deploy such a bad-faith argument. You don’t know me (and you certainly don’t know anything about Roman Catholicism more than what your prejudice requires to justify itself) yet you think you can judge me based your own prejudices and ignorance. It’s OK though, I still like you (I am not a fanatical bigot).
There are no statues in Orthodox churches.
Saker,
I am not Orthodox, but this was brilliant !!!
Saker, you just want to win every argument, even if you have to use opposite arguments each time.
The Saker on June 23, 2015 · at 5:10 pm UTC ““The Serbs were not attacked by The Muslims. They were attacked by the AngloZionists who *USED* Muslims for their purposes. That is very different from a religious attack by Muslims on Orthodox Christians.”
The Saker on June 23, 2015 · at 4:13 pm UTC “The Papacy and the Church have *NEVER* lived in peace. As we speak, Chechen Muslims are dying in the Donbass in defense of Orthodox Christians whom your Uniat Ukronazi brothers are trying to quite literally genocide!”
So in Bosnia it was all the fault of the AngloZionists, even though religion was the only thing differentiating the two groups.
In Donbass it is all the fault of the Papacy??? even though we all know the AZ mob are there in full strength PLUS there are also history, ethnic and language differences between the players (Galicians vs Russians). Can’t possibly be those differences or the AZ aspect, it must be down to religion for you. That is prejudiced cherry-picking; both as an historian and as an analyst you should know better.
You are historically wrong on top of it. “,,, created some “Eastern Rite” to disguise themselves as Orthodox Christians….” No, sorry, wrong. The Uniates WERE ORTHODOX and were allowed to KEEP their rites when they rejoined the Pope’s Church. No creating disguises involved.
Maybe you feel this was a betrayal of some sort. Maybe it was. But it has nothing to do with you. YOU are not forced to be Uniate. It is THEIR religion, and basic tolerance requires you to let them have it. …..unless you want to be the arbiter of what everyone else may believe and what rites they may use. In which case aren’t YOU the one who wants to be “….literally in charge of the entire universe as a deputy for God….” ??
I agree with Saker that the Muslims were used by the USA:
In 1992, all parties in Bosnia had agreed to the Carrington -Cutileiro peace plan.
Then Warren Zimmerman, the US ambassador in Belgrade, traveled to Sarajevo to request Izetbegovic to withdraw his signature from that agreement, which he did leading to the Bosnian war.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_plans_offered_before_and_during_the_Bosnian_War
It wasn’t about religion. Izetbegovic was conned by the USA. What he got after 3 years of war were the Dayton Peace agreement which was basically identical to the Carrington -Cuteiro agreement only this time with US running the show.
Just like Bin Laden, (who has Bosnian citizenship), ISIS, etc and USA controls extremist groups who are used by the CIA to foment war and ethnic tensions.
I also agree they were used by the USA. What I am objecting to is the attempt to blame the Ukrainian situation on religion, just because SOME of the Galicians happen to be Uniate — a religion Saker hates with a passion, for following the Pope, with a few obscure points of theology and dogma thrown in to muddy the waters. It is a huge distraction from reality, making it just so much harder to work out what really happened.
Saker says “..,..our 1000 years of experience of your genocidal hatred of us because only we can denounce you for the fraud that you really are?…” now isn’t that a nice example of clear thinking, historic accuracy and rational analysis. I am being sarcastic. He can’t see how it is paranoid projection…. the hatred is coming from him, not at him.
Saker, you just want to win every argument, even if you have to use opposite arguments each time. (…) That is prejudiced cherry-picking; both as an historian and as an analyst you should know better. You are historically wrong on top of it. aren’t YOU the one who wants to be “….literally in charge of the entire universe as a deputy for God….” ??
…
“when they rejoined the Pope’s Church”
Considering it was the Pope’s Church that separated from the Orthodox Church that would be very difficult to do.
Joined, sure.
@The Uniates WERE ORTHODOX and were allowed to KEEP their rites when they rejoined the Pope’s Church. No creating disguises involved…YOU are not forced to be Uniate
Some clarifications are necessary:
The Uniates (are the ones who) WERE ORTHODOX (until they submitted to the Pope) and (as a concession) were allowed to KEEP their rites when they (re)joined the Pope’s Church (provisionally, until they would become fully Catholic)… YOU are not forced to be Uniate (because we can’t force YOU anymore, you are just required to tolerate falsehood, what’s the big deal?
So Kat Kan…you think ‘its ok’ for the Uniates to have been bribed or bought or whatever so that they just worship the Pope but can keep their religion anyway ? its a totally different religion with the Pope in there.
I think the Pope is a joke if it wasn’t so serious.
and another thing Kat Kan…the Pope is a Jesuit…the first time a pope has ever been from the Jesuits…and here see this,
https://youtu.be/j3puXfaE-vc
This is the ‘extreme’ oath which was vowed for a while…then they took the ridiculous parts like killing babies out of it..but it still shows to what degree the Jesuits want to win…at any cost….
or many other examples of people who expose Jesuits.
The pope is trying with all his might and mane…and he has plenty of it….to make the whole world think he’s a good guy…but Jesuits…the ones that have taken the vows are never good guys…they have a world hegemony agenda…look into Jesuits….
They seriously want to rule the world….so yes, the Ukraine is definitely partly due to the RCC. Andrew Korbyko’s articles here point out how bad the pope is in the Ukraine.
and Kat Kan..the Z/A’s and the RC are aligned…
@Ann
Agreed. The “oath” sounds like the same person who authored the “protocols” authored this oath….as well writings by Herzl, Jabotinsky et al. Too many to list.
It’s a long tradition of “War By Deception”.
Adam Weishaupt was the son of a rabbi, who entered a Jesuit monastery before founding his masonic “infiltrations”.
Christine
Amen
Christine
@Saker
My “Amen” comment was directed to your post The Saker on June 23, 2015 · at 4:13 pm UTC
I very much appreciate it and I so agree with you that this RC church is a total fraud……I should know…I was raised in it.
So thanks and Amen again
Christine
I recently heard that the publishers want a sequel to “The Da Vinci Code”. Not necessarily written by Dan Brown.
I like the way Ahmed is positive on future reconciliation. I also believe this is possible if we stop politicising the victims, and we have genuine Truth and Reconciliation. Unfortunately, I’m still waiting for the Truth.
The way I see it is that genuine grievances by the Muslims in Bosnia have been distorted, even falsified, to fit the doctrine of “humanitarian intervention” by NATO, and this is how we obtain the narrative of “Victim” and “Aggressor”, and the terms like “genocide” being flung around the debate.
John Laughland has done an excellent job examining the the notion of “International Justice” and compares how the Nuremberg trials were successful compared to the trials of the former Yugoslavia.
Laughland describes in this interview how the botched justice administered in the The Hague has fuelled a backlash against the the Bosnian Muslim’s case, and how it could prevent reconciliation for generations to come.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4_J-ZxYnMw
We need the people of the former Yugoslavia to create a “Truth & Reconciliation” committee, sort of like they did in South Africa. But his would involve all sides accepting their share of the blame in this conflict…
True.
@Serbian Girl
Don’t know much about John Laughland, tho if you are portraying him correctly *seems* to make sense…will check him out.
However, this statement: “the Nuremberg trials were successful” gets the hair on the back of my neck rising.
This was a farce run by the A/Z’s ..totally and completely. Theatre all the way. Starting with the tales of lampshades made out of skin, to the piles of shoes and the disappearing shrunken heads….pulleeze….
As they say: History is written by the victors.
We have all taken the red pill now.
Cheers
Christine
@Christine
In the the Nuremberg tribunals, the defendants were tried for violating national sovereignty. i.e. starting a war, and all other crimes flowed from this. In this matter, the Nuremberg trials were successful in reinforcing the international order.
The tribunal for the former Yugoslavia undermines the international order and the concept of national sovereignty.
Another problem with the Yugoslav trial compared to the Nuremberg trials: Use of protected witnesses. From a legal perpective, this is undesirable as accusations need to be made in public and by clearly identified individuals in order to prevent fall accusations. Note that the number of protected witnesses in the Yugoslav trials was enormous.
The tribunal for the former Yugoslavia resembles a class action lawsuit similar to the kind you get in the US when a “victim” sues for damages. In this case, the Bosnian muslims successfully extracted revenge form the mostly Serb defendants, however because the legal proceedings were so dubious this has created a backlash against the trial.
For all those hell-bent on revenge a short historical note: Since the middle ages, at the end of a war, peace treaties were concluded on the base of amnesty for war crimes on BOTH sides that led to a pardon and then reconciliation. ..
Dear Serbian Girl,
Excuse me for taking so long to get back to you.
It would take a lot of digging for me to go back and find all the articles exposing the Nuremberg Trials for the farce that they were. But yes they were a total farce run by Jewish officials [the majority of judges] and were so biased in the treatment of the defendants. Several witnesses were later exposed as frauds. Officially these tribunals have been lauded as a fine example of international justice, which just proves that the victors write history. A continuation of the abominable Versailles Treaty. Used as a basis for the “reparation” payments from Germany which continue to this day. I can’t work that hard to find all those articles/documents for you so …..you don’t have to believe me, I am sure there are others here who know I speak the truth. Even if no one here agrees with me….that is my view on the Nuremberg Tribunals.
in this video you Linked for us, Laughland states that [referring to the trials he investigated] they are ALL WITHOUT EXCEPTION… RIGGED. By definition, this includes the Nuremberg Trials, especially as he tells us, all the modern international tribunals are modeled after that infamous tribunal. “infamous” my word.
According to Laughland, the only difference between the Nuremberg trial and the following tribunals is that of using Crime of Aggression vs not using that criteria respectively.
In addition, tho we are prevented from discovering the truth about Milosevic’s death, for my part, from what I have read so far about that, Milosevic was succeeding to do a very good job of defending himself, and this is why he was poisoned.
Regarding Laughland, I always like to determine what the source’s affiliations is/are. Mr. Laughland speaks from the Rhodes Forum. To me…an evil entity. Chatham House, Council on Foreign Relations, Trilateral Commission etc.
So here I see an effort to instigate the closing down of international tribunals.
How convenient. Just in time to invalidate the Palestinian cause.
We agree in one area….The Yugoslavian Tribunals were a travesty of justice.
Best
Christine
Hungarian author Louis Marschalko writes in his book The World Conquerors: The Real War Criminals, that the Nuremberg trials were a scam and that all the Nazi officials had been tortured to force them to admit their guilt.
http: //en.metapedia.org/wiki/Louis_Marschalko
http://www.amazon.com/The-World-Conquerors-Louis-Marschalko/dp/1910220108
@FLOR
thanks……looks interesting
Best
Christine
The GREAT tragedy is that THE SEVERAL “SIDES” were manipulated from the outside to enter into a conflict with the direct intent to dismantle a relatively-successful socialist and multi-cultural state (Yugoslavia) because it served as a dangerous example that Socialism can work. “The West” accomplished this with the blood of the participants (some money and political coercion from the West) and no “troops on the ground”. The Saker is correct, this serves as the model for subsequent ethnic convulsions.
About Izetbegovic and his politics, here’s the book that got him into jail in old Yugoslavia – build your own opinion, it’s self-explaining:
http://profkaminskisreadings.yolasite.com/resources/Alija%20Izetbegovic-%20The%20Islamic-Declaration%20(1990).pdf
Abdic was a legitimate winner but he was too “soft” for the radicals and of course smeared as a collaborator etc. Izetbegovic pulled a coup aided by the west and he was clear from the get-go that he wants an islamic country – and that in a country where muslims aren’t even a majority except in certain regions. Of course all christians and all moderate moslems like in Bihac area were scared shitless and that was obviously with good reason, seeing the results.
Let alone all those imported afghan mujahedins and Iranian and Turkish trainers for the locally recruited islamists, that were delivered by the Americans via Tuzla airport… oh, it didn’t come on CNN, I know.
As for the history, yes of course there was a folk called Bosnjani, which was writing in Cyrillic and had purely serbian names in the north-west and Latin/croatian in the south. Their religion was mostly bogumil until the orthodox east and catholic west pulled them over, concluded by the turks who destroyed the last remnants of it. There was never a separate folk that suddenly converted to Islam, nor are there any historical facts of any sort to support that.
All that aside, genetically all the groups are intermixed and most of the genes are from the initial inhabitants anyway – celts, illyrs etc. about 50-60%, with maybe 20-30% slavic blood and 10% germanic blood and then the many small minorities. It’s a shame that after several generations of living in harmony a bunch of traitors and some apes succeeded in dividing us into imaginary groups based purely on flawed religious sentiments.
Thank you for reminding me on Izebegovits “Islamic declaration”.
In this document he clearly stated the unity of religion, the basic rules of states, legal system, education, economy and so forth, must necessaraly be the guiding principle for muslim politicians.
All other groups of this society, be it christians, jews, atheists or what else are tolerated but excluded.
As usual ‘part-truth’. In case of ‘wahhabis’ or like we say ‘vehabije’ and mentions of their participation in bloody war..i would suggest mr. Ahmed to visit place called Zavidovici and asks old bosnian-muslim womans about ‘no more than 1200’ takfirists and their part of war. Btw there he(or anyone else)can speak a word whit my relatives(or anyone else) for sure they will tell you some info that no media will ever about raping of muslim womans which vehabije ‘practice’ there. The number was much much bigger, now everyone wants to minimizeit. Sorry for bad eng and greets.
A great overview of the breakup of Yugoslavia:
http://brainfartware.blogspot.com/2015/06/history-lesson-breakup-of-yugoslavia.html
Unfortunately, not even close to “great”.
Regards, Spiral
You mean it doesn’t fit your delusional fake history of the region? It’s no surprise really. If you wrote the true history of America and presented it to an American or a westerner, they’d consider it rubbish. It’s the same with the history of Yugoslavia – there are so many deluded people who still can’t accept the reality of the 90’s.
Anything one group considers reality is NOT. The only way to get at anything close to it is to compare notes, and to do so on facts, not on searching for more proofs to back up your one-sided story you grew up on. That starts with not insulting the others just for having grown up on something different. That’s what caused the problems in the first place.
well said….
i sometimes think that fighting for/over religion is extremely misguided.
it is sometimes down to the level of my jaket is red and yours is blue
and those over there in green are goiing to help us exterminate because
we are colour blind…
all religions are supposed to believe (loaded word) in the one god.
whether you put your head on the mat, just your knees or full
body prostration should really have vey little to do with what is
supposed to be happening internally (mystical experience?)
unfathomable and certainly unexplainable.
words are this world and cannot ‘explain’ the unexplainable,
because it is a different language.
a bit like trying to describe a painting of ‘the masters’ by saying.
well he did 176 green brush strokes horizontally for the lawn
and 734 vertical brush strokes for the sky etc.
no pun intended, but you get the picture.
if your ‘religion gives you negative feelings about some
other ‘religion’ then what is it really worth?
ibrahim
@whether you put your head on the mat
But when you have to part with your head if you do not say exactly the words as Daesh wants?
The site calls itself “brain fart” which is actually a pretty appropriate name…
Hi Spiral :)
so I guess we could say that this person at this blogspot correctly chose an apropos moniker eh?
Best
Christine
It’s important to understand that Serbs who converted to Islam did that for economic reasons (“better life”) not for the religious reasons. Turning back on their own people, identifying with the enemies of their own people, for the money is immoral by definition. Those who did it put the stigma of shame on their descendants forever. There are only two ways to remove that stigma:
1. To emigrate to a country where there is not enough Serbs to remind them of their stigma, to a country where they can further develop that new “Turkish” identity or
2. To convert back to Orthodox Christianity
“put the stigma of shame on their descendants forever” — SAY WHAT?!
That’s insane. Even the Old Testament version of JHVH, who was a total SOB, normally didn’t go past the seventh generation. Further, it’s very likely that most peoples who converted to Christianity from whatever “pagan” religions in the first place (the state religion of the Roman empire lest we forget) did so for similar reasons. So the stigma of shame should be on basically every Christian, too. But why stop there? I mean, professing a religion for venal reasons is IMO a pretty minor crime. Everyone in creation has ancestors who have done way worse than that. Step aside original sin, everyone’s stigmatized by bloody everything their ancestors have ever done, we’re all horrible and evil from birth.
Thinking like yours is what turns the world into a charnel house. In the real world, people are not guilty of things they themselves did not do. Duh.
Ahmed,
Your carefully constructed argument still cannot explain the facts that:
Mehmed Paša Skolović was a Serb from Bosnia who accepted Islam but never abandoned Christianity
Meša Selimović (author) and Emir Kusturica (film maker) are/were Bosnian Muslims who declared themselves Serbian
Ivo Andrić was a Serb Catholic from Travnik in Bosnia
On a geopolitical note,
The Serbian population of the Croatian Krajina, Sarajevo and Kosovo has been wiped out completely in 90s.
That is the nasty truth that the NATO coordinated public discourse in the West is hiding. That is why it’s so important to paint the Serbs (“Small Russians”) as genocidal aggressors – to justify the real genocide that took place before the eyes of the 24 hrs news consumers and set a template for the “Operation Russia”.
To ethnically cleanse 3 regions nearly simultaneously takes some effort and good planning. I’ll leave it to you to work the details out.
Civil wars are nasty. However, the one nation that was quite happy to stay in Yugoslavia were the Serbs. For being headstrong about it NATO bombed them in every single corner of Yugoslavia they could find any.
And they will continue to do so. Being their enemy is easy, no ethical issues there.
Being their footman though… I don’t know, Ahmed.
OT.
Saker, have you heard about this? Former Advisor to Ukraine’s Defense Minister Defects to Donbass.
Bosnian War: thanks for the article and I hope a dialog will materialize somehow. I am biased about the Serbs because a Bosnian Croat ( face half blown off and left for dead) who came to this country as a skilled machinist married into my family. He came from a small village and said he first knew that the winds of war were beginning to blow when small groups of armed men began to pass through his village and talk started to turn ugly. At his wedding here in the US he invited a Muslim friend who came with his two daughters who at the age of 12 and 14 were gang raped as part of Serbian ethnic cleansing.( these girls a bit older at the time were a restless mess–one kept moving around the room changing where she sat). Now I don’t know the ins and outs of the politics and the blah, blah of mutual recriminations but it is clear to me that the ordinary people of former Yugoslavia were played and conned to the max. This man,by the way, died two years ago of advanced alcoholism at the age of 56–he either worked long shifts or came home and drank himself into a stupor except when Molosevic was on trial : Then he would sit in front of the TV and rage, rage, rage. The doctors were amazed he lived as long as he did.
Horrible things happened during the war. My relatives (Croats) have been decapitated in-front of their older mother by Bosnian fighters. The mother died shortly after and said they had black and green Arabic flags.
Nobody was every jailed for the crimes. This was central Bosnia and after that Croats beheaded few Bosnians and sold the heads on the market.
The time has come to talk peace, without EU, USA or any other involvement.
The people of the midEast are being played
http://news.antiwar.com/2015/06/22/israeli-druze-attack-military-ambulance-syrian-al-qaeda-fighter-within-killed/
Well, it is my humble opinion
that the only way to solve the religious problems of the countries of the former Yugoslavia is to ABOLISH completely all three creeds on this territory, that is: the Orthodox one, the Roman Catholic one and the Muslim one. And of course to return to the old Slavic pagan beliefs which is the only thing that can possibly ideologically re-unite Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks (former Muslims).
I was, as a Serb, outraged by the crimes done in the name of our Orthodox church against our Muslim Slavic brothers in Srebrenica and elsewhere.
However, I am a realist, and I know that my idea about reunification of southern Slavs based on ancient Slavic religion has about 0.0000000000001 % of chance of becoming a reality.
Anyway, I am doing what I can in that direction.
Having said all of that, it is easy to understand that I am pan-Slavic nationalist rather then a Serbian one.
Now, in spite of this, there was one sentence in Ahmed’s text which really made me angry.
The sentence is :
” A “Republika Srpska” as it exists since Dayton won’t get rid of the genocidal taste in a thousand years.”
That is so infantile that I can’t describe my horror. Croatian state killed around 700. 000 Serbs in Jasenovac concentration camp only !!! Srebrenica massacre is therefore only 1% of Jasenovac massacre. And Ahmed doesn’t mention the only true genocide that took place in those region in the past century – and that is the Croatian ustashe genocide over Serbian people, not even ONCE!
In other words, 2.5 million killed Serbs in both world wars are not worth mentioning, but 65 000 killed Muslims (now Bosniaks) are enough to say that ” Republika Srpska won’t get rid of the genocidal taste in thousand years.”
Ahmed, you can’t be serious, you must be joking, right?! I mean if you are not joking, you will turn even the most pro-Muslim and liberal pan-Slavic Serbs against you.
All “pagans” play in the hands of AZ.
Nonsense. I know a few Wiccans; I think it’s a ludicrous faith, but it’s also very anti-war, and much harder to manipulate into backing US style aggression than any of the Abrahamic faiths. That’s probably because it emphasizes feminine, nurturing stuff rather than being a “big daddy” religion. Wiccans have this idea that harm you do will be returned to you threefold, for instance.
The other day you spoke of the Serbia during 90s that was “pure fascism” because everyone (!?) had weapons & one could get killed “because of his/her hair cut”.
Now, you claim the following: “I was, as a Serb, outraged by the crimes done in the name of our Orthodox church against our Muslim Slavic brothers in Srebrenica and elsewhere.”
What a vile statement! How, in hell, did you connect our holy Orthodox Church with the Srebrenica myth & “our crimes elsewhere?”
From these two loathsome statements of yours, I conclude that your key targets are “armed Serbs” (= army) and our Orthodox Church – both the key pillars of our society & the most respected institutions of ours for centuries.
Church saved our identity even when we were without the state, & our glorious armed liberators gave us the freedom & saved us from the extermination.
And now, you want to erase 1000 years of our history, while planning on some weed smoking hallucinations as our “glorious bright” future?
That’s what I’d work on if I were to have the same employer as you do, you perfidious creature!
If a country’s most respected institution, for centuries yet, is its army that’s worrisome. Armies are often necessary, but the point of an army is to kill people, and the nature of an army is rigid hierarchy and blind obedience. Getting a mindset that says they can do no wrong and their ethos should be promoted is dangerous. Any time I see someone say “How dare you say bad things about the army?” I conclude that person would be willing to be a fascist if fascist politics was significant where they were.
What a projection of the western mindset! We didn’t go around to colonize, exterminate, & likewise, but to free ourselves from the various oppressors – from Turks, Austro-Hungarians, Germans, Bulgarians, and lately the domestic NATO proxies & the NATO fascists themselves. On average, we had a war every 17 years for the last two centuries alone, not counting minor uprisings & such. The number of dead is hard to estimate, but in the two World Wars alone, we lost about three million people.
Thus, leave your labeling for some other societies & nations who really deserve it! by your twisted logic, the remark of Alexander III of Russia – Russia has only two allies: its navy & its army! – is a proof of a fascist society? And I know it for the fact that in Mother Russia, army is – thanks God! – also, besides the Orthodox Church, the most respected institution, & it has been so for centuries. I am sure it will remain so. Where would have been Russia nowadays if it weren’t so, you angel soul?
I’m sure your native society is a proud one of its glorious contribution of humanism to the world. Tell us about it, will you?
Many things to argue about in Ahmed’s reply (after all he is not born in Bosnia). Too little space, though.
The bottom line is that all 3 sides in Bosnia wanted to get extreme maximums in the civil war:
– Croats wanted Croat Banovina borders (1939 agreement w/Serbs);
– Serbs wanted roughly 75% of all land (they were majority throughout of history, and owed most of land, until Bosniacks with high natality became largest group);
– Bosniaks (muslims) wanted ALL of Bosnia (considering it their).
War was inevitable (no real attackers/defenders, but rather who got prepared better, and had better support). War was also accelerated with west irresponsible recognition of Bosnia before internal agreement was reached. West was actively supporting Croats and Bosniacks because they considered Serbs to be Russian allies and pronounced BAd Guys (something similar going on in Ukraine now with rebels).
In civil & religious wars crimes are common. Whoever had more power – commited more crimes. NO ONE was/is innocent.
War ended in stalemate with balance tipped over by west intervening and bombing Bosnian Serbs.
No side got what it wanted.
Serbs giving away teritories (down to 49%), Bosniacks were merged with Croats into Federation entity (to prevent moslem state in Europe).
Still Bosnia is a big powder keg due to one – Bosniack moslem side still wanting unrealistically ALL Bosnia for themself (one person-one vote, win by big natality).
Croats wanting their own republic / entity, while Serbs (even though contempt with 49% of teritory) wanting to separate completely from Bosnia.
Untill Bosniaks abandon their desire to conquer all Bosnia, Croats are given entity, and Serbs stop separatists tendencies, Bosnia will never be a country, and always one step away from the new conflict…
The alternative is perhaps another war, Bosnia will dissapear, split in 3 parts.
Or dissolve peacefully (small chance): Croats are given entity (part of Federation), and Croat + Serbs entites join their mother states, while Bosniaks would get their own (smaller state, and only realistic one opposed to the whole Bosnia for themself).
Development will lagely depend on world conditions, as west & NATO would love to swallow the whole area. Bosnian Serbs being in their way (and including Serbia itself as well). Will Russia help Serbs this time, or abandon them like it did in 90-ties?
You have a point.
Ahmed starts his story too late. Trouble was almost inevitable when for many secession became an acceptable solution while there was no consensus at all about where the new borders should run and what the rights of the new minorities should be. Even worse was that there were no accepted rules on how the secessions should be handled. Even the right to unilaterally secede itself was disputed.
In his very long article Ahmed dedicates only one line to explain why the other republics needed to be independent: Serb nationalism. Yet there is not a country in the world where nationalism elsewhere would be accepted as enough excuse for such an extreme act as secessionism. Things happen. And sometimes you have a government that you absolutely don’t like. Get over it: it will pass.
Ahmed tries to explain the sudden start of the war as one-sided Serb aggression. He fails to notice that in Croatia things did start slowly. By the time Bosnia declared independence everybody knew – or could know – that it was not a given that conflicts could be solved peacefully. In that context the way Izetbogovic pushed through his independence was highly irresponsible.
“Still Bosnia is a big powder keg due to one – Bosniack moslem side still wanting unrealistically ALL Bosnia for themself (one person-one vote, win by big natality).”
So, let me get this straight–the side that wants one person one vote is the problem. Because that’s what they want. I dunno, man–confessional-based systems like in Lebanon aren’t very stable. Inevitably a group with more people wants influence in proportion to how many people they are, and the confessional nature of the system locks in the idea that politics can only be about the faiths rather than about, say, economics, or class, or gender, or whatever.
Racists of the world unite! Is this really true that the Kiev fascists fly the Confederate Flag of the USA? No spoof article, this?
http://russia-insider.com/en/whistling-dixie-western-ukraine/ri8244
It is nonsense. There is one picture of some meeting, back in 2013, some friendly meeting of political groups, and someone took a Novorossiya flag, which looks fairly similar to a Confederate one. Americans of course only know it as that.
That whole story is stupid. They use that being a “Confederate” flag and being in Kiev as evidence that there are Nazis there. Not knowing the flag is not a Confederate one, and that its brother belongs to Novorossiya, and that Kiev side uses genuine Nazi flags. The author is American, they often only know American stuff. Story actually says NR flag is based on the Russian naval ensign, but they never bothered to look up what that looks like.
Some States in USA now want to BAN the Confederated flag, just because the latest shooter had a photo holding one. They are now falling that flag racist. Crazy.
Well, I don’t think it should be banned–free speech and all that. But could we get real? Of course the confederate flag is racist. I know, I know, apologists for it says it’s about states’ rights. Yeah, states’ rights to be racist; they wouldn’t care if it was about states’ rights to regulate interstate commerce or some damn thing.
Back in the day, the South fought over the right of states to hold slaves. This was as much about economics as it was about racism; the racism existed because it justified their ability to base their economy on really, really, really cheap labour.
Nowadays, it’s different. People who display the Confederate flag do so pretty much entirely because they’re racists. What, you think it’s because they’re fiercely loyal to the great state of Mississippi or whatever? Come on! No, it’s absolutely a marker of racism and all other connotations people float are the flimsiest damn excuses to try to put an acceptable gloss on it.
For me, one question is why are all those people racist? They’re racist partly because the people who made their lives suck, the .1%, diverted by telling them their problems are all because of blacks. Dividing the poor so they don’t get uppity and you can crush them separately is a venerable tactic world wide (including, it would appear, in Bosnia, Serbia, Croatia and whatnot). Indeed, there’s only ever really been two ways for rulers and ruling elites to keep people down–either “Look! An internal enemy!” or “Look! An external enemy!” If you manage it right, an enemy can even be both at the same time (“Terrorists!!!”)
The more industrialised north is better off than the more agricultural (today dust bowl) south. “Government” (working for the 1%) is also in the north. I think many have retrospectively cast the Civil War as between the haves and have-nots, the 99% and the 1%.
I have come across a few Americans who took to backing Novorossiya because of the flag — recognising them as downtrodden workers rebelling against the oppressing rich (especially after they found out what “oligarch” means). That flag symbolises a lot more than racism, and I doubt that it did at all back then. Many of the original fighters under it, and certainly most of those who now display it, were not of the slave-owning class.
Anyway, the current craziness about removing the flag is based on?? one single crazy guy having been photographed with one. The next school shooter will have pictures with Border Collies, so they’ll all be banned will they?
Oh, too late. In France a guy killed 2 fellow workers and his own boss. The kind of revenge for being fired type of killing that happens from time to time. Or the guy comes back and shoots up a bar he got tossed out from. Plain crazy killing. But oh, there was a flag with Arabic writing on it, supposedly, so it becomes terrorism. Here in Sydney recently a nutcase guy (with long record of fraud and domestic violence) took some hostages in a cafe — and got himself heaps of attention by demanding an Isis flag., (What terrorist doesn’t have his own flag???). Government milked it for weeks. We were never told what he really wanted; cops managed to kill a hostage as well while killing him.
Splitting countries, splitting people–all better to eat you, my dears
http://news.antiwar.com/2015/06/22/concerns-as-pentagon-chief-broaches-possibility-of-three-iraqs-not-one/
Their strategists had this planned all along.and Kurdistan will be their strongest outpost when the ISIL flash-in-the-pan is over.
Before I begin, please read the book “The Fools Crusade” by Dianne Johnston. I know only of English edition, it can be ordered from Amazon, or found in a local library. I found it in Toronto Public Library.
Now, my long essay about Ahmed’s post, where I skip what others mentioned (Srebrenica, mass media, propaganda), but I will try to point to some other things that easily evade the untrained eye.
I don’t blame Ahmed for what he believes and feels. The war was horrible, one can find dirt and blood on all sides and on all hands. However, living in Austria for a long time, implies that there could be some bias in assessing and evaluating the situation. Simply said – he can only repeat what he hears, privately or on MSM.
There is one very false statement: “Look what Serbs did in Slovenia”. When Slovenia happened, everybody else, including Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Macedonia, they were all part of Yugoslavia. What was exactly that Yugoslav army did in Slovenia? Nothing. Not even helping regular units, so many of them had to flee the barracks through Austria, then Hungary, to come back to Yugoslavia over the northern border. When army barracks were blocked by Slovenian national reserve forces, no water, no electricity. There was a question in Belgrade, then General headquarters of JNA (Yugoslavian Peoples Army, Jugoslovenska Narodna Armija) what to do – how to safely bring the boys home. Commander of Air Forces, Zvonko Jurjevic, a Croat, honourable soldier, suggested to send aviation to burn the corridor 400 m wide, from some point on the Austria-Slovenia border to the border with Croatia for the JNA units to retreat, and leave Slovenia to Slovenians. Overall Commander in chief, Blagoje Adzic, Serbian from Herzegovina who is orphan from WWII, ustashe killed his whole family – refused to do so. At that point it was clear where this all would go, straight to hell. And it did. the traitors were among Serbs. Zvonko Jurjevic later left JNA to become – Commander of Air Forces of Croatia. If Serbian generals did not want to protect JNA, why would he? From what I know, he does not have blood on his hands
Another thing where Ahmed is plain wrong, or uninformed is the affair of Fikret Abdic. Ahmed thinks it is a good thing that he gave up the presidency because Alija Izetbegovic was better choice for Bosnians. That insults about 98% of Muslims who voted for him. There was vote, where almost 100% of Serbs voted for R, Karadzic, almost 100% of Muslims voted for Fikret Abdic and almost 100% of Croats voted for their representative. AT that moment Bosnia was split. (I don’t write Bosnia and Herzegovina just to save time). Alija was on the election ticket, and he got practically no votes. Suddenly, some divine force changes minds of all Muslims in Bosnia, and Fikret Abdic hands over the presidency to Alija Izetbegovic. Maybe it would help to know that Fikret Abdic, sharing the border with Srpska Krajina in Croatia, cooperated with Serbs, fighting Croats. Yet, Bosnian Muslims people voted him. So I would not say generally Muslims wanted to exterminate Serbs a priori. they were pushed into the war hell by Alija, with help of diaspora, people who have not stepped on Bosnian soil for a long time, if ever. To great extent this is true for Croats in Croatia and Herzegovina. And for Serbs, to lesser extent. Serbian diaspora was simply not strong enough to be a factor of much importance. however, there were enough hotheads in Serbia, who never stepped on Bosnian soil, but they ‘knew all the answers’ and wanted to settle down some old accounts with ‘Turks’. The only people who really had reason to be afraid of and seriously prepare for future war were Bosnian Serbs and Serbs in Croatia. Like in the past, they were the ones to be attacked and suffer. Well, this time, they did not wait idly to be taken to slaughter, at least most of them. As for Bosnians (Slavic people in Bosnia who are of Muslim background, not necessarily religious), they did not war. But then Alija Izetbegovic came along. A few sparks here and there, sniper fire at all-nationalities rally in Sarajevo, Serbs believe Muslims did it, and Muslims believe Serbs did it, and nobody knows for sure who really did it (Kiev, Maidan, anyone?), enough to spill the first blood. And that’s how it started.
Watched from above, birds eye, this is how the war in Bosnia looked like:
So we had Serbs and Muslims (Fikret Abdic) in north-west Bosnia fighting Croats, Muslims fighting Serbs everywhere else, Croats fighting Muslims in central Bosnia, while Serbs watched and helped evacuating Croatian civilians (Travnik, Vlasic), Muslims with Croats against Serbs in Herzegovina, Serbs around Sarajevo fighting Muslims while Croats stand by, once in while occasional borrowing or renting pieces of heavy artillery from Serbs in order to fight Muslims, and in north eastern Bosnia, around city of Tuzla, where I am from, Muslims and Serbs fighting, and Croats controlling the supplies for the besieged city, using mountain roads controlled by Serbs. In return many Serbs escaped from Tuzla with help of Croat paramilitary units (HVO), over Croat territories around the city.
Confused enough? If you are not from Bosnia, you are expected to be.
Ahmed also forgot to mention the brazen act of treason committed by Alija Izetbegovic. At some point, it was negotiated that JNA units from the Muslim part of Sarajevo should evacuate. Three people were in the leading vehicle of the convoy – Alija Izetbegovic, General Kukanjac as commander of JNA units, and Philip Morion, French general, commander of UNPROFOR units – observers and blue helmets appointed by UN. Three commanders was a symbolic gesture of trust and attempt to solve the crisis in a non-hostile way. As soon as the firs vehicle, with three commanders passed a check point, in the heart of down-town Sarajevo, the rest of the convoy was attacked by Muslim forces. Very few survived. If we know that most of the soldiers were locals from neighbouring hills, is it any wonder that Serbian artillery was shelling Sarajevo after that? Exact same thing happened in Tuzla, where I am from. It had status of “Open city”, people lived there in relative peace. At some point, it was negotiated the JNA garrison should evacuate….. Unlike Sarajevo, most of the convoy, with artillery and rockets was let through. Then came the rear end, supply units, cooks and ammunition trucks, unarmed soldiers (that was the deal). Very few survived. the whole vent was broadcast by local TV from Tuzla. Interesting point, when the speaker on TV uttered words “And now, good bye JNA…”, at that moment the shooting started. What a coincidence, really. On 50 km from Tuzla, there was no war. Rumour has it that an order came from Alija “Let something happen in Tuzla” and few buses of troopers from Sarajevo arrived the day before…. true, what Serbs did in Srebrenica is ugly, but there are a few immoral acts on the other side as well, which get conveniently omitted. Being from Austria, and being informed by Austrian TV and by close relatives from Bosnia, no wander Ahmed missed some details, here and there.
But there is one thing Ahmed got it right, and I must admit, most of the Serbs don’t accept it. Not all Muslims in Bosnia are descendants of islamized Serbs. Some are, but not the majority. My family happened to know professor Nedim Filipovic, a brother of Muhamed Filipovic mentioned by Ahmed. I learned from him that in medieval times, before Ottoman Turks invaded Balkan lands, Slavic tribes on what used to be Yugoslavia were divided into Catholic ones on the west, Croats and Orthodox believers on the east – Serbs. They adopted Christianity rather late, compared to the rest of Europeans, north, west and in Mediterranean, since Slavs appeared on Balkan peninsula in serious numbers only in 7th century A.D. as a part of Great migration from the east, along with Huns, Avars and like tribes. Slavs were at the beginning enslaved by them, but as time went on, somehow the population that reminded in next 4-5 hundred years was speaking Slavic languages and following Slavic customs. The rest, including whoever was there before hordes from east arrived, most likely melted into huge Slavic mass.
About 8th-9th century Slavs adopted Christianity. Or, it was imposed on them. Croat lands were under great influence of Franco-German nations, in every sense, so they got the religion from them – Catholicism. Eastern part was under influence of Byzantium empire, which was Orthodox, hence Serbs, Bulgarians became Orthodox. But, whet was happening with Bosnia? well, the story goes, Slavic people became prevalent there as well, with one distinction. No great power of the time ruled the Bosnian land, due to geography and topography. Bosnian mountains were practically impassable, so no huge army could break in and conquer the land. Lands on the north of Bosnia, around river Sava, changed hands many times, and were under formal control of catholic powers, Hungary and Austria, sometimes even Slavic nobility ruled. However, that ended about 1150, when Hungarian empire took over. The population was still and stayed till today – Slavic. North east Bosnia is a flat land and was often under control of Serbian nobility, so orthodox Christianity was imposed on them. TRheymixed with Serbs from Serbia more than with Bosnians from the heart of Bosnia.
There were attempts to break into heart of Bosnia, where Sarajevo is today, but they were mostly unsuccessful. No power held on Bosnian lands long enough to impose their culture or religion which resulted in rather peaceful life for the local population. They did have Slavic language, something in between Serbian and Croatian dialects of the same language. They of course mixed with non-Bosnian population in area of contact – at north and north east of the country. That is where claims come, from both Serbian and Croatian side, that those parts of Bosnia are actually Croatian and Serbian. We can accept it to some degree. However, for highlanders deep in the hinterlands was unaffected. Around early 1200 AD there was attempt to pass Catholicism on them, but it did not work. Those Bosnians were not without spirituality and religion though. they did believe in God, the same one Christians believed in, but were not under either mother church. Thy did not build churches. the priests were homeless and were travelling over the country, staying in peoples homes and teaching the religion and healing. Note that similar thing happened in Islam, spreading over north Africa, at about the same time, a bit earlier maybe. People with similar spiritual views in neighbouring Serbia, and Bulgaria were prosecuted by authorities, both religious and political, and some of them fled to Bosnia. Why not, the language was practically the same, the ‘religion’ very similar, and Bosnians were tolerant and peaceful people.
Now this is important. We are talking about peaceful and tolerant people, at the time when the whole of Europe was just exiting Dark Ages, which were supposed to be cruel and violent period. How to explain peacefulness and tolerance? Well, the Bosnian Slavs were mainly isolated from the neighbourhood, for good 5-6 hundred years. Life was not easy in the mountains, so people had to collaborate in order to survive, at least to tolerate each other. No-one could become too wealthy to subdue the rest, so the whole picture was pretty idyllic. By 1300-1400, the isolation had melted away, and we have first Bosnian nobles, adopting religion of the neighbours, often flip-flopping from side to side, depending on current situation. when Ottoman Turks appears in Balkans, Bosnian isolation was not strong enough to protect them form external influence.
Ottoman Turks were on the Balkans as early as 1371, in Bulgaria, by 1389 they were in Serbia, with frequent incursion in Bosnian lands. While in Bulgaria and Serbia they were met with fierce resistance, it was not so in Bosnia, with its docile and tolerable population. Bosnian people rather moved further into mountains, they did not fight, they did not know how to fight, because of their 5-6 hundred years of virtual isolation. Turks themselves were more serious enemy than neighbouring princes, so Bosnians could not retreat any more. They accepted the new rulers, adopted the new religion, since they did not have strong unified church nor central state organization.Adopting Islam at least give them impression that they were treated less cruel way than their neighbouring Christians. Most of the elite converted to Islam out of interest – to keep their privileges as long as much as they could. On the borders, north and north-east, as in Herzegovina, where population mixed with neighbouring Serbs and Croats, much less people converted to Islam. Even today, north of Bosnia is a chessboard of Orthodox and Catholic settlements. Hence, most fierce battles in the wars of 1990 – 1995 took place there. North eastern Bosnia was predominately Orthodox, with not insignificant pockets of islamized Slavs, and we too had bloody battles there. In Herzegovina is much like north of Bosnia – a chessboard of fiercely Orthodox and fiercely Catholic enclaves and settlements, and lots of disputed lands. If you guess that bloody battles took place there to, it was a good guess. Since conversion of Bosnians to three different religions, hostile to each other, happened around 1400 and 1500, we had 500 hundred years to develop hatred and disdain of each others. It was very convenient for Croat and Serb nobility of the time, and later, to claim that all Catholics in Bosnia are of Croatian stock, and all Orthodox are of Serbian stock. Which implies that islamized population is made simply of converts from official religion to Islam. Croats consider them openly “Croatian Flowers, the best part of Croatian corpus”, when indeed they despise them. Serbs on the other hand, are less diplomatic, and they consider them traitors who changed religion for material benefits with no hidden disdain. So, Croatian and Serbian Bosnians themselves accepted their nationality determined by religion, in hope that Christian neighbours will protect them. It did not happen, but hope is a powerful emotion. Today, Serbs from Bosnia and Croats from Bosnia claim that they are ‘real’ Serbs, or ‘real’ Croats, and Serbs in Serbia are merely “Serbians”. In Serbian language, “Serb” and “Serbian” are two different things. “Serb” is what you are, and “Serbian” is where you live, like “Irish” and “American” respectively.
I lived in Bosnia for a long time. I am Serb from Serbia, my roots are in south Serbia, Nis and Vranje, which were under Turkish rule until 1875 and 1912 respectively. I can compare people on both sides. Believe me, Bosnian Croat, Muslim and Serb have more in common culturally and anthropologically than Serb from Serbia proper and Bosnian Serb, and Croatian from capital Zagreb and Croat from Herzegovina. I know that my fellow Serbs, especially from Bosnia will crucify me for saying this, I am talking from experience. If you met there persons from Bosnia, and have a conversation with them, about anything, except maybe politics, there is nothing to tell you who is what. If you ask them for names, you will be able to tell which one is Muslim, since no Christian is named Ahmed for example. For the remaining two, you have to ask them to cross themselves, to tell the difference. That is how much people are different from each other in Bosnia. As for Muslims from Bosnia, it was a great insult to consider them Turks. They know very well that they are Slavic people who happened to adopt useful religion at the time, but now it is out of fashion. Being peaceful and tolerable people they tolerated any power to be. They tolerated Ottoman Empire, that is normal and expected, they were the same religion. But when Austria occupied Bosnia in 1878, then formally annexed it in 1908, they adopted that as well. No rebellions. Tie the horse wherever the Aga (Turkish noble) tells you, goes the saying. It was Serbs who rebelled, you know the story about prince Ferdinand and Gavrilo Princip, and how WWI started. Then came Kingdom of Yugoslavia in 1918. They adopted it as theirs, even if their units, under AU fought Serbs in WWI. Then came Independent State of Croatia, fascist puppet state, they accepted it peacefully, trying in some cases to outdo their masters in atrocities against Serbs, being “the most beautiful flowers of Croatia”. Then came 1945, communism and all. Most ardent guardians of the great deed of Marshal Tito, no-one was such communist and no-one stood for brotherhood of all Yugoslavian peoples, as did Bosnians. I know, I lived there from my age of 4 to 29. Now they are ardent Muslims, the saying goes “greater Catholics than Pope himself”. All of that did not stand well with violent Serbs and Croats from Bosnia and Herzegovina itself, well mostly from Herzegovina.
That was my long 2 cents.
You got to love history of Middle Ages told in terms of Serbs from Serbian stock vs. those of Bosnian stock. It seem history in this region really begins and ends with Tito and the borders of his federal republics. The tale is so full of anachronisms that it makes you think about the phenomenon itself.
But concerning the difference between today’s Serb from Serbia and those from Bosnia and Herzegovina which as Tuzlak painted it goes back to middle ages. I recommend to Tuzlak to read about the surnames of Serb families he is basing that view on. I can bet you he is going to find such an intertwined lines that he is going to have to find another explanation for his “feelings” of cultural and anthropological discrepancies. Do you realize how much of our family trees have branches all over are historical geography? Are you really claiming that Serbs from Pristina, Nis, Ras, Kragujevac, Cacak, Belgrade, Sremska Mitrovica, Subotica are as similar as they are different from Serbs from Bjeljina, Bihac, Banja Luka, Sarajevo, Trebinje, Nevesinje? How do those Serbs from Zagreb, Vukovar, Benkovac. Herceg Novi, Niksic, Podgorica, Kumanovo fit your Serb cultural profiles?
There are many similarities between Serbs in Bosnia and other places that Bosnian Muslims do NOT share.
You have the Serbs of Bosnia and Herzegovina with a spirit of resistance – they had many uprisings which were very brutally put down. Turks also tortured Serbs in Bosnia, even impaling them for their resistance. Yet Serbs were always dreaming of being free from them. They were continually rebuilding or trying to rebuild their churches and monasteries. The Bosnian Muslims did not resist and they didn’t resist the Austrians either, and instead were used as tools against Serbs. They were again used by key NATO powers in the last war.
You also had the Serbs of Bosnia having spirited patriotic songs of their resistance and desire to be free. It was Hercegovinan Serbs who inspired Tchaikovsky during their uprising against the Ottoman Turks. He incorporated Serbian folk songs into his Serbo-Russian March, known much more popularly as Marche Slave.
Another cultural similarity between all Serbs is the historical embroidery and fine embroidery which the Bosnian Muslims do not have. Even today you have Bosnian Serb women and Serbs in general who do very fine and complicated handicrafts much moreso than the Bosnian Muslim women.
Serbs also have a love of dancing that isn’t in the Bosnian Muslim culture. Bosnian Muslim women weren’t even permitted to dance in Ottoman times and they didn’t resist.
Meanwhile Serbs even had a special “silent dance” when they were forbidden by the Turks to play music:
“The Glamoč silent Dance”
“This is one of the oldest Serbian dances, originating in western Herzegovina. the Glamoč silent (or mute) is performed without any music, as it came about in the period when all the social gatherings and cultural events were a sort of underground activities, hiden from the eyes (and ears) of the oppressors. The dance would start first with slow stomping in a given rhythm on a rocky flooring, giving off a strange sound, resonating all around, giving a new impulse for the gathered to join in. The young men and women wear metal and gold tribal coin necklaces and chest jewellery, their clinking rendering a special atmosphere and tone hue. Such a dance was also a sort of endurance test for the dancers, which was considered on choosing a bride or a groom.”
Further, Bosnian Muslims didn’t have the traditional dance footwear of Serbs – opanci.
You also leave out winemaking, the building of monasteries and that style of living. Bosnian Serbs have that culture same with Serbs of Kosovo, Serbia, Montenegro and parts of Macedonia.
Also you had the famous writer, Rebecca West, noting many differences between the ways of the Bosnian Muslims and Bosnian Serbs (and Serbs in other places were the same). For instance, she noted different treatments of the graves – Serbs were very attentive and regulary visited – even ate a special dish at the graves, while Bosnian Muslims neglected the grave sites and let nature/weeds overtake them.
Serbs are very much like this today, and there is more a sense of ancestor worship among Serbs – and Bosnian Serbs are the same.
Remember how Bosnian Serbs even dug up their dead to take with them, when they were leaving Sarajevo due to it being handed over to the Muslim-Croat Federation by Dayton.
“Remember how Bosnian Serbs even dug up their dead to take with them, when they were leaving Sarajevo due to it being handed over to the Muslim-Croat Federation”
Serbs observe a custom of visiting the graves of their loved ones on at least three designated days each year.
These particular days are called Zadusnice and although they are not prescribed by the Serbian Orthodox Church priests will usually do a round of the cemetery on those days and say prayers for the dead if asked to do so by the attending families.
It is probably an old custom that goes back to pagan times.
However it is important to note that these days it is not ancestor worship in the true sense.
Prayers are offered FOR the souls of the dead not TO them.
And another thing – your claim that the people of Bosnia basically didn’t resist and just went fled to the mountains leaves out that Serbs were already there BEFORE the Ottomans and that some Serbs fled Bosnia altogether for other parts of the Balkans, including what is today in Croatia.
For instance an American of Bosnian Serb descent detailed in a linguistic discussion about Serbs fleeing from Bosnia (and other areas) for others. I will quote him as he was specific:
“By the 15th century, vast numbers of Serbs fled Ottoman invasion of Serb lands of Rashka, Zeta and Bosnia, and settled in the norther parts of Dalmatia, Lika, Kordun (the so-called Krayina), and Eastern Slavonia. They brought with them shtokavski. Papal nuncio’s first visit to these people around Dubrovnik signals vatican’s willingness to convert the Orthodox Serbs to Catholicism and the only way they could be addressed — since none of them spoke any Latin — was in shtokavski, or Serbian dialect! The dialect didn’t just spring out of nowhere. Previous to that, besides Latin, the Croatians used exclusively chakavski — which is more than a dialect because it is unintelligible to a Serb! I can read modern chavaski poetry on the Internet and I don’t understand it! Yet I can read 12th century Bosnian Serb ruler’s edict and understand it perfectly! If it is just a “dialect” (which is a losely used term), why is the 12th century Serbian dialect in Bosnia intelligible and modern-day chakavski is not?”
So this would show that many Croatian Serbs were in fact of pre-Ottoman Bosnian Serb stock.
Twelfth century? when was that? let me see…. 900 years ago? plenty of time for a language to change. Even with the one language, not even dialects but the same language, one group of speakers may settle in a secure and enclosed area, where they are more or less left to themselves. Another group move to a border area where they regularly come in close contact with other peoples with different languages; may for some few 100 years be under their rule. This process is described in that American’s story, only he didn’t think that after 900 years they won’t be the same anymore. That is why today he can’t understand something that was a dialect so far back.
The history is written by people who are not Slavs and that is one reason that people think that Slavs haven’t been in the Balkans for that long. If we look at the Slav numbers and DNA, we can say that that Slavs have one of the oldest genetics in Europe. There have been many movements from the Slav people before and they would move from the south to north. The new discoveries with the Vinca culture and Lepenski Vir are showing us similarities with the Vinca signs and first Slav scripts.
More research is needed.
Slavs have nothing to do with any Neolithic European culture. They only came to the Balkans in the 6th century, during the Avaro-Slavic migrations. The earliest mentions about them are in the texts of Procopius and a few other Byzantine writers. They attacked the local populations and even the Byzantine Empire and were considered barbarians by the refined Greeks.
This comment is a good example of cultural bigotry and ignorance. I let it through moderation so others can understand how deep the anti-Russian bias is imbedded in western so-called Christian propaganda. Here is a short, more balanced view of the early Slavs and their origins: http://www.ancient.eu/Slavs/ for those who may be interested.
http://groznijat.tripod.com/slav/vryonis.html
http://www.unet.com.mk/mian/slavsin.htm
When posting a link, it’s good internet etiquette to give a synopsis of what the link covers. Neither of those links you posted reinforce your previous inference that Slavs, as a people, were more barbarian than any other cultural groups.
I gave the synopsis above, which you called “a good example of cultural bigotry and ignorance”. Now I will give you the actual quotes. From the first link, which is a paper written by Greek historian Speros Vryionis for the Center for Near Eastern Studies, University of California, LA:
The Evolution of Slavic Society and the Slavic Invasions in Greece
“In a scholarly gathering which has as its purpose the centennial celebration of the American School of Classical Studies, the topic of my communication is appropriate by virtue of the fact that the excavators who have carried on the investigations of the Athenian Agora, ancient Corinth, and Kenchreai have also turned their attention to the fates of these sites in the 6th and 7th centuries after Christ, the period of the Slavic migrations and settlements in the Balkan peninsula.”
“the Avaro-Slavic invasions…deracinated much of Byzantine society in the north and central Balkans.”
“Yalouris uncovered the first major cemetery in Greece at the time of the building of the new museum of Olympia. The tombs contained the positive evidence of a Slavic presence, i.e. cremation of the dead and a rough, hand-made pottery of the well-known Prague type. Inasmuch as the graves were immediately above the latest Roman stratum, Yalouris dated the tombs to the 6th century.”
The Archbishop of Thessaloniki, John, who was a witness at the Avaro-Slavic siege of the city, calls them “the beastly nation of the Sklavenoi”, and his own compatriots “distinguished, intelligent and most Christian population”. The siege was described in The Miracula of St.Demetrius.
Other quotes from the paper:
“Our primary written sources for the state of Slavic society in the 6th century are three: Procopius, the so-called Strategicon of Maurice, and Theophylactus Simocatta. Specific studies have shown that the pieces in Procopius and the Strategicon describing the early Slavic society are not simply archaistic rhetorical exercises consisting largely of meaningless topoi koinoi, but are actually accurate reflections of Slavic society at that point in time when the Byzantines first came in contact with it. Theophylactus Simocatta is a rich source, reliable, with specific details, and tends to confirm the picture presented of early society in both Procopius and the Strategicon. In fact, however, any discussion of early Slavic society must begin with Procopius:
‘These barbarian nations, the Sklavenoi and Antae’
‘..they revere…some other daemons and they sacrifice to all of them’
‘they dwell in pitiful huts’
‘And there is simply one barbarian language for each of the two nations.’
‘They do not differ even in shape from one another. All are particularly tall and stout… all are ruddy.’
‘they have a harsh and careless way of life’
‘they are full of filth’
The same picture emerges from an examination of the text of the Strategicon of Maurice:
‘leading a life of banditry, they like to carry out undertakings against their enemies in the forests’
‘Being without leadership and hating one another, they do not know order’
The testimony of Procopius and the Strategicon of Maurice is specifically confirmed by Theophylus Simocatta, historian of the crucial reign of Maurice (682-602).”
WOW cultural bigotry for sure. Claimed to be accurate reflections, reliable, with specific details? sounds like a fairly typical demonizing of strangers. It is even held against them that they look similar to each other.
I am not aware of any ancient description of newly-met foreign tribes which praise them, or find anything redeeming about their appearance or behaviour. I think it says a lot more about the authors than about the people they describe.
These are good only for showing these tribes were relatively new to that area at that time (also available from burials). Even the comments about “one language” are meaningless without some indication the author, or someone he knows, has actually learned enough of it to speak with them. But these read like they were afraid to get closer to them than the far side of the river.
That’s why I said “they [the Slavs] were considered barbarians by the refined Greeks”. I gave the quotes in the link which support my assertion. The authors were Byzantine writers of the time. We cannot expect them to be politically correct.
An interesting Stratfor article on borders that has some relevance to this debate (and Greece and the Ukraine). https://www.stratfor.com/weekly/what-borders-mean-europe?
Thanks for the Stratfor article. It supplies some general background context for this topic; even more, it may be directly relevant to an oddity I noticed during Charlie Rose’s interview with V.V. Putin in St. Petersburg the other day. Rose mentioned “borders” several times and seemed to not get a response from Putin — at least not one he was looking for. That interview is at
http://www.charlierose.com
Air Amerika transporting Muslim terrorists who became Muslim soldiers from far away lands, is the only thing I need to know about what ever happened. I can see it in Syria and Yemen right now so I don’t have to look far or think very deep either..
I am sure ISIS have a lot of grievances.. I fully supported their struggle again US occupation.. That was before they went to work for Unkle Sammy..
I should add a disclaimer since I seem to come off as anti-Muslim.. Its nothing off the sort.. I am an equal opportunity hater! I HATE BAD PEOPLE. I was just telling my wife that priests are one of the worst people I seen. They are supposed to hold the word of god and support Christians. Having so many relatives who are priests and who I know are very good people who sacrifice a lot it was hard to say that. But I also live amongst mixed culture and the people who harass us the most and cause the most grief are Christians. Muslims and others treat us far better or leave us alone. And these “people” go to church every Sunday and accept the sacrament and pray for forgiveness. Given a choice of fighting zombies with a group of people, I would go with the Muslims.. They do know how to chop off heads.. They do rape 10 year old girls or sell them.. How is that any different than the raping off a 12 year old, after killing her father, mother, uncles and brothers and stabbing her to death and setting fire to the entire place by a Christian… His friends said we Christians should stick together..
@I would go with the Muslims
You are our guest, but hurry up!
Thank you for your article, Ahmed.I don’t agree with a lot of things you said or how you said them.Its a bit too biased. When you speak about victims, you give vivid images about Bosniaks being executed and tortured. When you talk about Serbs, you don’t. I have read reports and seen images about Serbs being dosed in petrol and burned alive, flayed, impaled, torn asunder by vehicles, beheaded,tossed into pits and caves ,had their throats slit and other usual ways of killing. You give exact numbers about killed and exiled(or deported, I cant remember a word for a person being forced from his home) Bosniaks, but don’t do the same about Serbs (and Croats) killed or forced to flee.30% of total population of Sarajevo, all Serbs were forced to flee.2-3000 Serbs was killed during the first two months of war in Sarajevo alone .Generally you seem to represent Serbs as a bunch of genocidal fascists, spurred by the Church, hellbent on destroying Bosniaks. Killing purging and burning Bosniak villages all over Bosnia. Of course, every Serb village razed and inhabitans slaughtered was an act of revenge by criminal individuals, not an ethnic cleansing. . In Srebrenica region alone, 3627 Serb civilians were butchered by Orić’s marauders. About Bosniaks being killed by Bosniaks, Orić’s units killed up to a 1000 Bosniaks in Srebrenica, during the siege. There is a book about that, written by a member of Majke Srebrenice. A lot of Bosniak were shot/executed by ABiH entering Western Bosnia, also. A full ABiH division was encircled and shatered near Srebrenica, roughy 3000 Bosniak soldiers were killed, but ensuing slaugther of POW is an eternal and terrible stain in Serbian history.As someone who has both seen Nazi extermination camps in Poland and Croatia, and typhoid camps and knows a lot about unknown genocide against Slavic nations during WW2 and is, and will never say, write or even think about it as genocide.Im sorry but it wasn’t. Abdić’s peace delegation members were butchered together with their women and children. You speak of peasants armed with hunting rifles. You seem to forget all those weapons, ammunition, personel, trainers, supplies and money received from Middle East, mostly Iran being surplus from the 80-ies.About Ottomans: Serbia has been totally occupied by the Turks since 1459,other parts occupied roughly 60 years before. We had been a battleground beetwen Turks and Hungary, and then the Habsburgs.Serb people was enslaved and exploited, we suffered the Devshirme.When we started national liberation in 19. century, our elite was decimated, we lost a fifth of our population during fighting. During the 20 th century, two times we bled more than that. If you had only been a little less biassed, it would have been a perfect call of reconciliation.Im sorry if I had been crude, harsh or brash.It was not my intention. My wife lost a brother(9 years old) in a village next to Velika Kladuša. It was an insane war between two nations(or peoples), that have same (almost) the same language, art, culture, listen the same music. That drink the same beer, eat the same food, every morning crave for burek and jogurt. That differ in only in religion. It only takes one idiot to start a war, and we had plenty of them here. One of the rare things we dont miss here.
Lester, I am familiar with Majke Srebrenice; however, I do not believe that the story of the killing of the Abdic peace delegation’s massacre is told by them. Do you have a source, please?
And which was the village near Velika Kladusa you mentioned?
Hello Matt! I’m sorry for the delay, I couldn’t answer you earlier, there was a lot of work to be done.I’m on a coffee break now. My wife’s familly comes from village of Bosanska Bojna.The book I mentioned was about Orić’s crimes in Srebrenica, writen by Ibran Mustafić Planirani Haos(Planned Chaos).Im not aware of the English version.Sorry about the confusion. Being a he, Ibran normaly cannot be a mother, he is an ex-associate,mea culpa. About Abdićs envoys, i’m writing on a mobile and can not give you a link now.If you can read Croatian or Serbian, there is an article in Večernji list and B92. Some keywords: Atif Dudaković, V Corpus ArBiH summer 1995, Pećingrad. I assume you can, since you’re interested and know about majke srebrenice.
Srebrenica story is much more complicated.
When we took that group captured in Zalazje from [Srebrenica] prison to take them back toward Zalazje, and when the slaying begun, Slobodan Ilic came into my hands. I climbed on his chest. He was bearded and hairy like an animal. He looked at me without saying a word. I took out the bayonet and jabbed it straight into one eye, and then turned it back and forth. He didn’t let the single sound out. Then I hit him with the knife in the other eye… I couldn’t believe he’s not reacting. Frankly, that’s when I got scared for the first time, so I cut his throat right after that.
http://europenews.dk/en/node/10656
Interview with Mr. Ilic son and wife you can watch here:
http://rtrs.tv/av/pusti.php?id=49870
Yes that was Naser Oric description of how he (very gorily) murdered the Serb judge at the very beginning of the war. How could that be considered “revenge”?
And notable is the Srebrenican Muslim whom he described that killing was NOT even brought in to testify. Even though he had been in contact with the ICTY officials and was there at the Hague and available and willing to testify while Naser Oric’s trial was going on.
The ICTY also prevented other information and witnesses at the trial of Naser Oric’s guilt.
Can’t we just all agree that the Balkans are a cesspool of conflict and were far better off as part of the Ottoman empire? This article proves it. All local populations have been done in by politics and are down to accusing and mistrusting each other. Just start practicing your own religions in silence and humility. Maybe beg Turkey to take you all in at once (and i mean the balkan states, not the balcan muslims in particular). Every other behavior is unbecoming tantrum-throwing…
If you tell us what county you come from, maybe we can give you some advice too.
Good idea.
I come from somewhere outside the Balkans, at least! I come from a NWO project cesspit that is NOT as successful a NWO cesspit as the Balkans are. And that is enough.
The Balkan countries were prevented from forming a permanent unitary state. Just look at it, it’s long overdue. Despite whatever you believe you’re culturally and genetically more homogeneous than European countries. Where is the Greater Jugoslavia that (rightfully) contains all Balkan states and Greece in it too? The Greeks are slavs in denial! Your bickering IS unbecoming from this point of view, is it not? It’s like you cannot accept that people will kill, murder and rape if given the right motivation. And when it’s done they will be convinced it wasn’t their fault! You’re all the same and all equally responsible for the region’s situation! That is the hard truth of cultural proximity.
Yes, i come from a country which is european and therefore rotten, and i’m no better human than any inhabitant of the Balkans. But i do not blame my neighbors for the condition of my state and my people, which are united, for better and for worse. Meanwhile, it seems that every citizen of the Balkans has someone to blame.
From Ljubljana to Budapest and Bucharest, and to Athens. You are one, immensely powerful state, but you are blind to it!
There is no way I would go back to a resurrected Yugoslavia!!
You wouldn’t, but your daughter might..
The only Yugo-nostalgics I ever met were Serbs. The Slovenes, Croats, Albanians, only thought of how to carve out their own little fiefdom (at our expense- how’s that for “brotherly love”?)
If the next generation is foolish enough to go back to “Yugoslavia” for the third time then it means they have learned nothing from the past.
Serbs: we need to secure our territorial integrity, join the Eurasion Union and join SCO.
Forget Yugoslavia!
Bingo! Otherwise, we’ll be digging graves for our future generations.
How did Washington use that conflict in the 1990s, how does it use it now? In the deliberations of how to remove Russia from the world entirely, where does the US propaganda use the Bosnian massacre? A world map of ethnic cleansing?
I am Bosnian Croat. I am already in the 40. I have been in the war between 1992-1994. I lived in central Bosnia, in the city called Zenica. I was a war prisoner, kept by mujahedins in that city. They had music school building in the centre of the city rebuilt to headquarter of their 7th muslims brigade. They kept me 28 days in the basement together with many other captive innocent citizens, Serbs and Croats, that nothing had to do with war. Most conversations I could hear from mujahedins, were in arabic or other similar language.
That city was a real horror place during the war. In evening and night hours they were marching through the city, thousands of them, holding the islamist green and black flags, shouting alahékber, singing some kind of arabic songs.
There are many villages around the city and in Bosnia still populated by that kind of aliens.
Muslims are not majority in Bosnia. Serbs have right to self-determination and seccesion. The same right wherby Slovenia, Bosnia and Croatia got separeted from Yugoslavia.
Ahmed, USA, SDA stooge, you are not Bosnian. Shame on you. Srami se prodana duso.
Thank you for confirmation from the “other” side, my (I dare say) Yugoslav brother. The aliens come and go, as always we will remain there in the end.
At the end of the day its about Catholics, protestants and Muslims triple teaming orthodox Christians. God will give us victory.
This entire thing is absolutely appalling! It is all based upon, and arises out from religious belief and its endless, perpetually-fractionating variations. For supposedly grown-up human beings to spend centuries arguing with each other, and then slaughtering each other over which compilation of superstitious nonsense is more “authentic” or more “holy” or more “true” or more “evil” or “better” than some other compilation of superstitious nonsense, is to demonstrate the depths of mental depravity to which far too many are willing to sink. If it were not so damned tragic, it would be just plain silly. And – it is an ENORMOUS waste of human life, time, effort and energy.
There will be no peace on earth until we all are ready and willing to climb up out of the swamp of religious belief – superstition – and be willing to live in the clear, bright universe of reality.
@ In the history of Islam, the Ottomans are the exception
Let’s try not to do to much out of the supposed tolerance of the Ottomans.
It is doubtful that “the Ottomans were by far the worst Muslims in history” (maybe they are considered so by the other Muslims because they showed more tolerance for the Christians and they did not force them to convert straightaway, it just postponed the realization of the ultimate goal of Islam, Islamization of the whole world). They shrewdly exploited the loathing of the Orthodox for the falsehoods and treacheries of the Papists, conscious that they enlarge the gulf between them, preventing any further alliances and rebellions. But they been pitiless when the specter of an alliance with an Orthodox power loomed. And what are you to believe when you hear increasingly louder voices in Turkey demanding that the Church of Saint Sophia be “given back” to Muslim worship?
Now, it is hard (for me, at least) to take in the “politically correct” nonsense that the dhimmi status (that is second class citizens) of Christians in Muslim countries, with its cortege of vexations, contempt, bullying and permanent threats to life for imagined offenses to Muslim “honor” was a proof of tolerance that put to shame the “intolerance” of the Islamophobic “Crusaders”.
What an interesting exchange, better than any MSM talk-show. I do not belong to any religion but am interested in all (at least those which I was able to study).
I visited Yugoslavia (Slovenia and Croatia) a few times and could not sense or feel any symptoms of the horror that was to come. It does not take much (I think) to conclude that religion, in the instance, was a convenient tool to stir up hatred among the uninformed and easily persuaded (or paid). On a more general issue I concur with the assessment about the differences between the Orthodox and Catholic churches. Specifically on the claim of the Pope to be the only prime minister of God, who, through history, has used the powerful instrument of excommunication to impose the tenets of a questionable doctrine to say the least. The recent acme of absurdity was the beatification of JP II, bitter enemy of the theology of liberation and great friend of the US of A and their “liberation” policies. For those interested I have covered the Schism of 1054 in two historical sketches, viewable at http://youtu.be/_Kcv1UjxjJ8 (part 1) and http://youtu.be/xnxSSCoY8SA (part 2). An event that more than any other marks a divide between two civilizations and modes of thought.
As someone who knows little about Bosnia/Serbia/Croatia etc, it is extremely difficult to understand the war in the 90s between Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks. Most articles on this that you can find via searches seem to come down hard on mostly the Serbs.
Can someone suggest a historical write up on this that is “accurate”? I am sure everyone thinks the one he/she chooses is accurate… unfortunately!
As a Serb I would recommend Rebecca West’s classic Black Lamb Grey Falcon for a starter.
And a big starter at that.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Black-Lamb-Grey-Falcon-Yugoslavia/dp/1841957879
Unfortunately her account ends before the outbreak of WWII.
There is also an edition with a foreword by militant atheist Christopher Hitchens which I have not linked to.
A bit like grafting a foreword by Zbigniew Brzezinski onto a classic work on the history of Russia.
For an account of the Serb plight in Croatia and Bosnia during WWII there are two books I would recommend.
Jasenovac and the Holocaust in Yugoslavia edited by Barry M. Lituchy.
http://www.amazon.com/Jasenovac-Holocaust-Yugoslavia-Barry-Lituchy/dp/0975343211
And:
The Yugoslav Auschwitz and the Vatican by Vladimir Dedijer
http://www.amazon.com/Yugoslav-Auschwitz-Vatican-Vladimir-Dedijer/dp/0879757523
Books with contrary sympathies and viewpoints are currently more profitable and plentiful.
This is the best compilation I know of. Make sure to check all the linked stuff, as well as their articles on Vatican via the main page.
http://tenc.net/yugo.htm
Not an historical write-up, but a documentary called “Yugoslavia: the Avoidable War”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u04IL4Od8Qo
In communist Romania there used to be a slogan everywhere: “Nici o masa fara peste”. (Not one meal without fish)
Have you got a source for that?
Did you get WizOz as moderator ?
I always have sources:
“Communist Slogan ‘Not A Single Meal Without Fish’ Forgotten”
http://www.evz.ro/sloganul-comunist-nici-o-masa-fara-peste-dat-uitarii-suntem-pe-ultimul-loc-in-ue.html
(evz=Evenimentul Zilei=Romanian newspaper)
I would be curious to hear Ahmeds comments on why other mulsims joined the Serb side in the Bosnia war?
I know for a fact the market shelling was done by muslims to get support .
It’s a long article. I will get back to finish reading it some time later but based on the few paragraphs I read thus far and as a fellow Muslim myself, I disagree! (We’re not like the West, where we can be secular and call for separation of church and state! Islam is a way of life and actually the reason why we’ve been in the hole for so long because we’ve been sooo far from the TRUE teachings of our great religion … None of our so-called Muslim governments is REALLY following Islam–not even Saudi Arabia!
And I quote this: ””concerning the (religious) minorities inside the country. In the best case, they might ignore them and deny them more rights, in the worst case: take a glance at ISIS!”’ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What are you talking about!!!! When us–Muslims– call for an Islamic state or Sharia law to be the law of the land … You know as a Muslim that IT IS NOT gonna be enforced on the minorities (to certain degrees). Sharia law (which simply means = to rule by Islamic laws) is mainly for Muslims, on a Muslim land (the satanic Western media wants you to believe there’s an Islamic enemy out there to get you …. But we all know–at least people like us who don’t depend on mainstream media for their news- that it’s a bunch of bull!
Anyway, I believe as a Muslim that the big war (world war) will come or is upon us … I wish to see an alliance between orthodox Christians and Muslims (both sides have to come to terms and admit their mistakes … Russia needs to be smart and embrace Muslims, no more injustice on Chechnya, Bosnia, or any other Muslims there.
Saker … Thank you for your efforts in this dialogue between faiths (we need more of you lol)
No more quarelling! Muslim and orthodox must stand together to fight the europe!
Agreed! No more quarelling. But Muslim and Orthodox must stand together to fight FOR Europe. Of course, the REAL Europe not the Europe of Conchita Wurst.
Alija Ali Izetbegovic along with Muhammad Ali Jinnah (Pakistan) and Imam Khomeini (Iran) were those rare Muslims who inspired and lead their nations in their pursuit of freedom from the foreign and local anti-Muslim powers during the 20th century.
Alija Ali Izetbegovic, born into a practing Muslim famili, chose a career in law. He was imprisoned twice by the Christian Serb-dominated Marshal Tito’s communist regime (in 1946-48 and 1983-88). First for being a member of anti-communist Young Muslim movement – and second time being one of the authors of an anti-Fascism and anti-Communism draft-document (Islamic Declaration) – two idealogies personified by Hitler and Stalin (both with Jewish ancestry).
During his second trial, Alija Izetbegovic told the presiding judge: “I love Yugoslavia, but not its government. I bestow all my love on freedom, and there is nothing left over for the authorities…. I am a Muslim and so shall I remain. I consider mysel to be a fighter for the cause of Islam in the world, and shall so feel to the end of my days. For Islam for me has been another name for all that is fine and noble, a name for the promise or hope of a better future for the Muslim people of the world, for their life in dignity and freedom, in a word for everything that in my belief its worth living for”.
Muhmmad Ali Jinnah’s vision of Pakistan was a one-person-one-vote democracy based on Islamic Shria’h governance with equal rights for the non-Muslim communities. Imam Khomeini’s vision was atheocratic ‘Islamic State’. However, Alija Izetbegovic’s visioned a multi-religious democratic state with equal rights for all religious and ethnic communities.
In 1990, as his political party (SDA) came into power with the fall of communist regime in Belgrade, Alija Izetbegovic was elected as the first President of Bosnia-Herzegovina. His 20-member cabinet was a Unity Government representing Muslims, Serb Orthodox and Croat Catholics.
He stood by his people throughout the war of agression against his country in the 1990s, leading his people with nerves of steel, living by his principles both as a European and as a Muslim. He signed the Dayton Peace Accord in November 1995 and was re-elected to the three-member collective Presidency forced upon Muslim Bosniaks majority by the West-Serb-Croat alliance in 1996. It was Islamic moral principles, however, for which he eventually resigned from the post in 2000, citing that the international community was pushing things forward in a manner with which he could not live.
The 43-month war for the establishment of Bosnia-Herzegovina as an independent state ended without a victors and vanquished. The so-called ‘Dayton Peace Accord’ was a reflection on this ‘drawn match’ – western inborn fear of a Muslim-state inside Judeo-Christian Europe.
Alija Izetbegovic visited Austria, Islamic Republic of Iran, Turkey, the US, Italy and met with the Pope, Serbian Orthodox Patriarch and Iranian political and religious leadership.
“No Islamic state is being created here. Naturally, we want Islam to be present here and we want Muslims to be free, but we have absolutely no intention of creating an Islamic republic. Tudman is taking the Milosevic line, except that he is doing so a few years later,” Alija Izetbegivic said in an iterview with RTVBiH, November 18, 1993.
Alija Izetbegovic’s literary work includes Islam Between East and West and his autobiography, Inescapable Questions. Alija Izetbegovic left behind two daughters (Lejla and Sabina) and one son named Bakir, an architect who enlisted in Bosnian Army.
http://rehmat1.com/2011/06/08/alija-ali-izetbegovic-a-timely-tribute/
Hilarious stuff. Thank you.
Did you write it?
To tell the truth, I copied it from Talmud.
call bullsh*t
not enough blasphemy
but certainly plenty misguided
Good find!
May I suggest an accompanying image?
A lovely work by Pierre et Gilles, Le Printemps Arabe.
Not Alija Izetbegovic himself unfortunately, but visually I think it captures much of the spirit of your short biography of him.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/caromelimelo/8083401031
Yes Sharon and Netanyahu – truth always hurts.
Watch the 2010 movie, The Whistleblower – and learn the truth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=4fotE0Uv4JM
there will be never peace in Europe, so long a single moslem lives there.
I am religious, we Slavs, have our own Gods and do not need the funnly Abraham jewish religions, comming from torrah, koran and bible.
those funny abraham religions have been invented by jews for the others stupidos, to subjugate them.
we, slavs, the germans, franks, wikings, galls, kelts welsh and irish people we have our druids and our gods. we do not need abraham and judaitic religions.
kick them out of europe.
I am Serbian, ortodox, slavic…
Igor, You are the same, I guess. (If not, do not read the rest). But, in case You are – who gives You right, Igor, to speak such things in the name of all of us? Who teach You that? Our ortodox priests never talk things like that? His Holiness, God rest his soul, Patriarch Pavle used to say to us Serbs, so many times: ’’Brothers, let us be humans. If we can not – than it is beter for us to disappear rather than to exist as inhuman’’. This sentence, of course, covers all kind of tolerance: ethnical, religious, racial, skin color, fan…
Things You wrote up here tells me You are just horny teenage fan of Zvezda or Partizan, whatsoever. Am I right?!
Saker, I am delighted with Your blog… no words to describe. Yet, You promised to ban intollerant statements as this one.
And, yes… pay attention on last sentences guy with nick Zenica wrote. If it is not insult to Ahmed, than what is?!
Before reading any comments, let me ask what’s the point of asking some “bosniak” for an opinion like this when identical “argumentation” is available for free in loads everywhere where they talk about the war? It’s a collective cool-aid they sucked on for the last 25 years from the ziomedia & zio-establishment.
And a reflection on couple of true gems that slipped through the author’s “analysis”:
– “… the Croats expelled the last Serb from Croat soil in 1995…”
Bingo! Isn’t that called “ethnic cleansing?” Is it a war crime? If so, why the Croats havent’ been prosecuted for it?
– Because they are NATO allies! Exact same game is now played in the Ukraine.
That’s what Alija Izetbegovic was hoping to achieve as well, with the “little help” of his zionist friends, who were controling the media, the academia, the NATO, & their Arab private monarchies, as they do today.
We Serbs in Bosnia were, however, strong enough to resists such sharia wet dreams oiled by petrodollars & the zionazi “druch nah Osten” 2.0.
– “If it hadn’t been for American intervention and threats to bomb the Bosnian Army… who knows how the war would’ve really ended?”
Hahahaha! Since I was their at the time, I thought for some reason that we were the side attacked by NATO, where the “brave” so-called bosnian army played the role of their infantry. My, my, was I wrong:).
The final point, dreaming of some reconciliation is more dangerous than the current dislike & mistrust amongst us for, it is simply digging the graves for our future generations. Thanks, but no, thanks!
Let’s don’t reconcile what couldn’t be reconciled for almost six centuries; i.e., ever since you guys sold your faith for a supper, as the saying goes.
“The God’s whip I’m for you,
to remind you what you’ve done!” (= converted).
There are many serbs who admit guilty, on the other side minimum of croats and muslims will ever admit.
For the comment abot alija ali izetbegovic. The organization which he was part in ww2 was recruiting fellow muslim people into ‘SS division Handzar’ . He personally made recruitments. Period.
Well, after reading the article and a bunch of the comments, I’m not sure just how many atrocities were committed by whom.
But it does seem to me that if I listened to quite a lot of the responders, I would come to the conclusion that nothing any Serb ever did was bad or unjustified. That strikes me as just a tiny bit unlikely. In turn that makes me doubt some of their more substantive claims. If you lead with nonsense, I’m going to suspect you’re backing it up with nonsense. At least the author of the article admitted that some of his people did some bad stuff. Yes, I know, not enough admissions of enough bad stuff to satisfy many here, but some nod of the head to the real world, which puts him a leg up on a good number of the responders calling him out.
And if I listened to a few of the commenters I would conclude that the Bosnian Muslims were bad simply for being Muslims and being where they were, and they should have all packed up their bags and gone back to Turkey or wherever, and if they failed to do so they deserved anything that was done to them. Those comments make me feel like washing my hands now.
Ironically, those responders kind of undermined the counterarguments of some of the other ones. That is, the article claims that there were a lot of racist Serbs making ethnic cleansing plans before the violence even started. Some responders said nonsense, Serbs weren’t/don’t think like that. But that looks less plausible when people pop up making exactly the arguments the article guy was pointing to, like the guy who said flat out that Bosnian Muslims will bear a stigma forever from their ancestors converting to Islam for reasons that weren’t good enough. Ewww.
” At least the author of the article admitted that SOME of his people did SOME bad stuff”
I doubt many Serbs would deny the same of SOME Serbs.
But the author conveniently ignores over four hundred years of Muslim tyranny over Christian Serbs in Bosnia including dispossession, abduction of children, massacres, mass beheadings and executions by impaling.
“Who do you suppose did most of the killing?” – Croats
Between 1941-1945 during WWII when as Nazi allies Bosnian Muslims again ruled Bosnia 72% of people killed in Bosnia were Serbs.
Only 16% killed were Muslims.
Around 4% were Croats.
Who do you suppose did most of the killing?
According to the author the Serb capture of Srebrenica and the alleged massacre of Muslim men there will be remembered for a thousand years.
He does not mention the destruction of scores of Serb villages around Srebrenica and the massacre of thousands of their inhabitants by Srebrenica Muslims prior to it’s fall to Serb forces.
To his consciousness those outrages simply didn’t happen or are not worthy of being mentioned or remembered.
Like the massacre of hundreds of thousands of Serbs during WWII and during the centuries of Muslim rule.
Bravo! For them history started in 1992, when they heard about Bosnia for the first time from Christiana Amanpour & similar jewrnalists. :)
Gen. Naser Oric: The Bosnian War Hero released by Swiss authorities and returns home.
http://rehmat1.com/2015/06/27/gen-naser-oric-the-bosnian-war-hero/