That map of the US isn’t accurate. Most of the Southern and Southwestern areas made to look like they were under control of Native Americans were really by 1790 under the rule of Spain with settlers from Spain and Mexico also there.
The reason it looks different is that in 1762 France ceded that territory to Spain.And then in 1800 Napoleon reclaimed it from Spain, before selling it in 1803 to the US. So in 1790 as my map showed the territory was governed by Spain.
So it was de jure, soon transgressed by other Europeans, post-Reformation.
De-facto, the Spanish had few if any boots on ground north of Mexico and were duly ignored.
After centuries of imperial decadence, indigestion from trying to swallow entire Latin America, and the Napoleanic wars in Europe and Mexico, the Spanish in N. America were ripe for pickings.
And in mid 1800s, once Americans had sufficient numbers and organized political will, they took California and much of N. Mexico.
So all settler parties published their own exaggerated maps, which didn’t mean much until facts were created on the ground..
It depends on what part of those territories Spain claimed. There were enough settlers to leave behind a sizeable Tejano population in Texas,a Californio population in California,and large Hispanic population in New Mexico. The Native American population in the US Southwest wasn’t huge either.And some of the best known tribes,the Apaches and Navajo were themselves not native to that region,but immigrated from further north in North America.Not settling in the US Southwest until some unknown time between 1200 and 1500. Its to be remembered that the Spanish themselves entered southern North America in 1492-1521.The most credible estimate of the Native American population in all the US was 4-5 million when the European colonists started to arrive. With maybe 1/2 to 3/4 of a million in the area claimed by the Spanish. So all in all only the 2 maps,1492 and 2021 are accurate.
Yes, we are in fundamental agreement on unreliability of maps of that period.
Sorry if I was not clear.
In fact contrasting maps are highly interesting way to track political trends and ideologies of competing empires.
Once Europeans understood with Magellan that earth could be circumnavigated, it meant every inch of earth could be claimed and possessed and/or plundered, without needing to pay or fight through the fierce Turkish or Mongol empires on the land routes to South / East Asia.
That mad scramble to control every land continues to this day and is source of most of our woe.
Biden is working hard to recolonize the US with illegal aliens, no borders, swarms of migrants, drug dealers, child and sex traffickers, and the world’s lawless offered a free ride on the citizens of the USA.
He’s doing what Brussels did to the EU, Merkel did to Germany and the sops in Sweden did to themselves.
please don’t post idiocies like that here.
first, this is not an argument, but a slogan
second, it makes no sense
if that is your best, please go to back to your mental playpen
The Crimean Khanate maintained a massive slave trade with the Ottoman Empire and the Middle East until the early eighteenth century. In a series of slave raids euphemistically known as the “harvesting of the steppe”, Crimean Tatars enslaved East Slavic peasants.[22] The Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth and Russia suffered a series of Tatar invasions, the goal of which was to loot, pillage, and capture slaves, the Slavic languages even developed a term for the Ottoman slavery (Polish: jasyr, based on Turkish and Arabic words for capture – esir or asir).[23][24] The borderland area to the south-east was in a state of semi-permanent warfare until the 18th century. It is estimated that up to 75% of the Crimean population consisted of slaves or freed slaves.[25] The 17th century Ottoman writer and traveller Evliya Çelebi estimated that there were about 400,000 slaves in the Crimea but only 187,000 free Muslims.[26] Polish historian Bohdan Baranowski assumed that in the 17th century the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth (present-day Poland, Ukraine and Belarus) lost an average of 20,000 yearly and as many as one million in all years combined from 1500 to 1644.
Conquest of Crimea was a reaction to slave raids. Not on the same level as Anglos genociding whole continents for dollars.
Very true, thank you!
and I would add that even at her worst (wars in the Caucasus) Russia was not purely an brutal occupier (which she at times definitely was) but also a protector of other persecuted Christian nations, like Georgia.
But yes, Russia and the USSR did commit A LOT of atrocities and evil acts in her history, why would I deny that? After all, I am not a westerner trying to whitewash 1000 years of imperialism :-)
But I sure will say and do everything I can to oppose any notion of Russian empire or some bullshit “right” or “duty” or “destiny” for Russia to intervene in other countries.
And, finally, as I said: there is no constituency in Russia for empire (well, okay, maybe 1-2%).
Compare our Duma with the US Congress and you will see all that you need to see.
Cheers and thanks again for your comment!
Andrei
yes, in her 1000 year old history Russia did conquer Siberia and much of the Caucasus.
and she still has 193 different ethnicities today: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_Russia
the US poly genocided ALL the indigenous races in 200 years (or betrayed them and parked them in destitute zoos you call “reservations”).
Your ignorance of you own history combined with an even deeper ignorance of world history, is very clearly manifested in your comment.
Thanks for making my case for me!
Cheers
Andrei
In some ways the expansion of the Russian empire was a mirror image of that of the USA—expansion to the end of the relevant continent. Also I think roughly the same time frame.
One thing that is seldom mentioned nowadays is the culture and knowledge that Europeans brought to Native Americans. Such as the wheel, spinning/weaving cloth from fibers, and metal cooking pots (huge quality-of-life improvements for Native American women and infants in their care), reading and writing, Native Americans loved European music sung in harmony, in addition to of course domesticated animals for farming and transport plus of course weapons. Many Native Americans were happy to hear of a different, kinder religion than the ones they were forced to follow, with the vast powers of shamans and medicine men wielded over the tribe members through fear/ignorance. For many Indians the advent of Europeans was a revelation of the intellect. Many tribe split into two factions, one that welcomed new knowledge and were happy to learn to farm, acquire land and wealth, slaves, etc., and one (often younger warriors who wanted to continue with the hunter-gatherer lifestyle) that completely rejected it (while still happy to get firearms, fire water, etc.).
No question an expansive United States—rather, individual states such as Georgia and Pennsylvania, etc.— treated Native Americans far worse than the colonial administration, broke all their treaties, etc. no questoin. Many of the agreements made with the latter quickly gave way to land hunger by newly minted Americans and settlers of all stripes.
The victory over the British and creation of the American confederation signaled a major surge in mayhem for the Indians. All treaties were broken, etc. A great source on the nuances in the interplay between intratribal power struggles and struggles with the new national and state governments is John Ehle, Trail of Tears: The Rise and Fall of the Cherokee Nation.
Not directly related but also related to map perceptions.
Another criticism would be one concerning US-Western usage of the term “China proper”, where Xizang (Tibet), Xinjiang and sometimes Inner Mongolia are left out of the PRC map.
By the same token, should we call “United States proper” just the 13 Colonies? I believe we should. Let’s draw a map with huge CALIFORNIA, TEXAS, MICHIGAN etc outside “USA proper” and check reactions from the US establishment.
On January 8, 1455 Pope Nicholas V proclaimed the bull Romanus Pontifex founding ”the doctrine of discovery”: <> (Automatic translation from the French version which follows.
could someone from this blog that does the moderation check / contact the moderation (sir /and or madam) to get latest post by poster (me) up as I need to double check it from the latest cafe menu
The same people who are stealing land from Palestinians also own rental properties in the first world. That means, YOU, pay your labor to people who get land for FREE.
That map of the US isn’t accurate. Most of the Southern and Southwestern areas made to look like they were under control of Native Americans were really by 1790 under the rule of Spain with settlers from Spain and Mexico also there.
https://www.timemaps.com/history/north-america-1789ad/
Hard to reconcile that map with the Louisiana purchase a few years later. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_Purchase
The reason it looks different is that in 1762 France ceded that territory to Spain.And then in 1800 Napoleon reclaimed it from Spain, before selling it in 1803 to the US. So in 1790 as my map showed the territory was governed by Spain.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_Purchase
Re: Uncle Bob and rule of Spain
It was a Spanish Pope who gave the arrogant Iberian empires of 15th century a division of newly “discovered” lands, via this infamous treaty:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tordesillas
So it was de jure, soon transgressed by other Europeans, post-Reformation.
De-facto, the Spanish had few if any boots on ground north of Mexico and were duly ignored.
After centuries of imperial decadence, indigestion from trying to swallow entire Latin America, and the Napoleanic wars in Europe and Mexico, the Spanish in N. America were ripe for pickings.
And in mid 1800s, once Americans had sufficient numbers and organized political will, they took California and much of N. Mexico.
So all settler parties published their own exaggerated maps, which didn’t mean much until facts were created on the ground..
It depends on what part of those territories Spain claimed. There were enough settlers to leave behind a sizeable Tejano population in Texas,a Californio population in California,and large Hispanic population in New Mexico. The Native American population in the US Southwest wasn’t huge either.And some of the best known tribes,the Apaches and Navajo were themselves not native to that region,but immigrated from further north in North America.Not settling in the US Southwest until some unknown time between 1200 and 1500. Its to be remembered that the Spanish themselves entered southern North America in 1492-1521.The most credible estimate of the Native American population in all the US was 4-5 million when the European colonists started to arrive. With maybe 1/2 to 3/4 of a million in the area claimed by the Spanish. So all in all only the 2 maps,1492 and 2021 are accurate.
Yes, we are in fundamental agreement on unreliability of maps of that period.
Sorry if I was not clear.
In fact contrasting maps are highly interesting way to track political trends and ideologies of competing empires.
Once Europeans understood with Magellan that earth could be circumnavigated, it meant every inch of earth could be claimed and possessed and/or plundered, without needing to pay or fight through the fierce Turkish or Mongol empires on the land routes to South / East Asia.
That mad scramble to control every land continues to this day and is source of most of our woe.
Biden is working hard to recolonize the US with illegal aliens, no borders, swarms of migrants, drug dealers, child and sex traffickers, and the world’s lawless offered a free ride on the citizens of the USA.
He’s doing what Brussels did to the EU, Merkel did to Germany and the sops in Sweden did to themselves.
“… He’s doing what Brussels did to the EU …”
Factors motivating Biden and Brussels, in different proportions, seem to be:
(1) quick massive acquisition of cheap labour;
(2) destruction of nationalities, for the benefit of that one tribe retaining identity and domination (guess which one).
nobody said this was crime against humanity testament to genocide
please don’t post idiocies like that here.
first, this is not an argument, but a slogan
second, it makes no sense
if that is your best, please go to back to your mental playpen
yea, lets post the same graphic for Russia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Russian_Tsardom_1500_to_1700.png
so, Russia aint no better than the West
Lets look at the Tatars for example.
The Crimean Khanate maintained a massive slave trade with the Ottoman Empire and the Middle East until the early eighteenth century. In a series of slave raids euphemistically known as the “harvesting of the steppe”, Crimean Tatars enslaved East Slavic peasants.[22] The Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth and Russia suffered a series of Tatar invasions, the goal of which was to loot, pillage, and capture slaves, the Slavic languages even developed a term for the Ottoman slavery (Polish: jasyr, based on Turkish and Arabic words for capture – esir or asir).[23][24] The borderland area to the south-east was in a state of semi-permanent warfare until the 18th century. It is estimated that up to 75% of the Crimean population consisted of slaves or freed slaves.[25] The 17th century Ottoman writer and traveller Evliya Çelebi estimated that there were about 400,000 slaves in the Crimea but only 187,000 free Muslims.[26] Polish historian Bohdan Baranowski assumed that in the 17th century the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth (present-day Poland, Ukraine and Belarus) lost an average of 20,000 yearly and as many as one million in all years combined from 1500 to 1644.
Conquest of Crimea was a reaction to slave raids. Not on the same level as Anglos genociding whole continents for dollars.
Very true, thank you!
and I would add that even at her worst (wars in the Caucasus) Russia was not purely an brutal occupier (which she at times definitely was) but also a protector of other persecuted Christian nations, like Georgia.
But yes, Russia and the USSR did commit A LOT of atrocities and evil acts in her history, why would I deny that? After all, I am not a westerner trying to whitewash 1000 years of imperialism :-)
But I sure will say and do everything I can to oppose any notion of Russian empire or some bullshit “right” or “duty” or “destiny” for Russia to intervene in other countries.
And, finally, as I said: there is no constituency in Russia for empire (well, okay, maybe 1-2%).
Compare our Duma with the US Congress and you will see all that you need to see.
Cheers and thanks again for your comment!
Andrei
… until you compare the numbers of indigenous people still left alive.
yes, in her 1000 year old history Russia did conquer Siberia and much of the Caucasus.
and she still has 193 different ethnicities today: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_Russia
the US poly genocided ALL the indigenous races in 200 years (or betrayed them and parked them in destitute zoos you call “reservations”).
Your ignorance of you own history combined with an even deeper ignorance of world history, is very clearly manifested in your comment.
Thanks for making my case for me!
Cheers
Andrei
In some ways the expansion of the Russian empire was a mirror image of that of the USA—expansion to the end of the relevant continent. Also I think roughly the same time frame.
One thing that is seldom mentioned nowadays is the culture and knowledge that Europeans brought to Native Americans. Such as the wheel, spinning/weaving cloth from fibers, and metal cooking pots (huge quality-of-life improvements for Native American women and infants in their care), reading and writing, Native Americans loved European music sung in harmony, in addition to of course domesticated animals for farming and transport plus of course weapons. Many Native Americans were happy to hear of a different, kinder religion than the ones they were forced to follow, with the vast powers of shamans and medicine men wielded over the tribe members through fear/ignorance. For many Indians the advent of Europeans was a revelation of the intellect. Many tribe split into two factions, one that welcomed new knowledge and were happy to learn to farm, acquire land and wealth, slaves, etc., and one (often younger warriors who wanted to continue with the hunter-gatherer lifestyle) that completely rejected it (while still happy to get firearms, fire water, etc.).
No question an expansive United States—rather, individual states such as Georgia and Pennsylvania, etc.— treated Native Americans far worse than the colonial administration, broke all their treaties, etc. no questoin. Many of the agreements made with the latter quickly gave way to land hunger by newly minted Americans and settlers of all stripes.
The victory over the British and creation of the American confederation signaled a major surge in mayhem for the Indians. All treaties were broken, etc. A great source on the nuances in the interplay between intratribal power struggles and struggles with the new national and state governments is John Ehle, Trail of Tears: The Rise and Fall of the Cherokee Nation.
Not directly related but also related to map perceptions.
Another criticism would be one concerning US-Western usage of the term “China proper”, where Xizang (Tibet), Xinjiang and sometimes Inner Mongolia are left out of the PRC map.
By the same token, should we call “United States proper” just the 13 Colonies? I believe we should. Let’s draw a map with huge CALIFORNIA, TEXAS, MICHIGAN etc outside “USA proper” and check reactions from the US establishment.
On January 8, 1455 Pope Nicholas V proclaimed the bull Romanus Pontifex founding ”the doctrine of discovery”: <> (Automatic translation from the French version which follows.
According to various activists of the first peoples this doctrine has not been abolished. It remains the cornerstone of dispossession. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discovery_doctrine
Le 8 Janvier 1455 pape Nicolas V proclame la bulle Romanus Pontifex fondatrice de ‘’la doctrine de la découverte’’: <>
dear sir /and or madam
could someone from this blog that does the moderation check / contact the moderation (sir /and or madam) to get latest post by poster (me) up as I need to double check it from the latest cafe menu
thank you so much for attentive ear
kink regards
Dear Bostonian
Please contact me by email at vineyardsaker at gmail dot com.
Thank you!
The same people who are stealing land from Palestinians also own rental properties in the first world. That means, YOU, pay your labor to people who get land for FREE.
Both America and Israel believe they are God’s Chosen People with a Manifest Destiny to steal and occupy other people’s lands.
In other words, Americanism=Zionism.
Don’t forget the rest of North America and South America. For that matter the whole world has been repossessed many times.