The war reporter Andrey Rudenko is in Azovstal bomb shelter, talking about the separate place for (may be killed) mercenaries bodies.
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The war reporter Andrey Rudenko is in Azovstal bomb shelter, talking about the separate place for (may be killed) mercenaries bodies.
The report didn’t get around to the why of this, their murders and the apparent cover-up.Is there a longer version?
I am an ex-Forensic Science Professional with many years of crime scene investigation experience, special operations support experience, and special services provision experience. I have provided special scientific and technical support to various ‘Alphabets’ (reactive and proactive ops) and to some internal military investigations and have been an expert-witness in many Courts of Law.
In other words I know a little about evidence collection.
Since Azovstal fell I have been concerned by the apparent lack of forensic-science-processing at Azovstal. I assumed that it must have occured, it just has not been shown on camera. This video however has brought my concerns to fore.
Just what the heck is a news team (and who knows who else) doing wandering around what could actually be a murder scene disturbing the scene and contaminating any evidence?
Are these the bodies of combatants KIA or civillian hostages murdered to shut them up?
Are these the remains of NATO spooks (CIA / MI6 / etc) or covert spec ops?
Are they the remains of high value Russian POWs / suspected Russian spooks who had been tortured / mutilated during interogation and their bodies incinerated to hide soft tissue trauma (aka ‘signs of torture’)?
From years of experience I have learned that fire does not destroy all useful evidence, including even what would be assumed to be useless such as burnt paper / documents (I have recovered clear writing from paper that had been burnt to blackness in a fire place).
I have been to many murder scenes where the identity of a body has been initially mistakenly presumed to be a certain person, but on very deep analysis (DNA compared to family memebers) has turned out to be someone else. Identity theft (of the dead by the living) for various reasons is not uncommon – such as a senior mafia member (or senior military officer) taking the identity of a dead (or murdered) person of no importance (other than to their family and God of course) to escape justice and begin a new life in a new country. Were any of the ‘Cooks’ and ‘Medics’ or even ‘civillians’ comming out of Azovstal actually ‘NATO Spooks’ or NATO Spec Ops (or Senior serving officers) – assuming the identity of a dead (or murdered) person whos body was then destroyed (along with the spooks / officers real ID) to facilitate escape / allow capture without dire consequences?
No criminal is as smart as they think they are, and no is any forensic science professional – so it becomes a battle between them – can the criminal outsmart the forensic guy, or can the forensic guy find that one piece of evidence that leads to a case (and hopefully an arrest and conviction)?
It would be a travesty if that room shown in the video was simply cleared out without a detailed forensic examination – heck even get the local Police crime scene team in to at least photograph it and bag and tag the Human remains to preseve any evidence still useable, and to bag and tag all remains of documents (back in the day I could have recovered latent detail on that passport / drivers licence and likely on many other items recovered – but seemingly casually discarded).
It will be up to the Russians to deal with this, but I am shocked by how little apparent forensic investigation (other than electronic) that is / has occured at Azovstal.
I could go on with this, but I think I have made my point.
PS
Is anyone forensically processing – or at least attempting to document thier identity and place of death – of the 100’s if not 1000’s of dead Ukrainian soldiers / forced conscripts left to rot in fields, hedgerows, at the side of roads, inside vehicles, and under rubble?
If I could speak and write Russian I would volunteer to begin such an undertaking (and help train a team of volunteers as it is clearly not a ‘one man job’), but as English is my only language I feel I would likely simply complicate things.
I do hope some attempts are being made to document deaths and identify bodies, and if anyone can post a video of link to sites showing this is taking place I would be very grateful.
thanks for the in-depth comment. i hope those in authority will take action and the crimes get brought to light.
I forgot to say the following –
Experienced higher-level Criminals will seek to mislead the Police / Forensic Science Professionals as much as they aim to hide or destroy evidence.
For example, the western firearms shown in the video should be taken only at face value – that is that these western firarms were in that room and are fire damaged. Absolutely no inference should be made that the weapons have any association at all with the Human remains in that room. To do so could be the beginning of being led down a false misleading trail (ie Mercenaries use these guns so as the bodies must be the owners, this means the dead are Mercenaries).
Also, the passport / drivers licence set my alarm bells off straight away. The standard MO of Mafia (and CIA / MI6 and others) is to either drop or to “discover” during their investigation an important item or document which identifies the dead body – such as a drivers licence or passport (think every false flag from 9/11 to Paris shootings where passports have been dropped by the “terrorists” and found after surviving exposions, fires, plane crashes etc).
An American passport (that somehow survived the intense heat well enough to be not only casually found but remain easily identifyable as such) would be an object I would look at very carefully indeed as a being an item intended to mislead or distract.
It would help grately to know how / where that passport was located as it may help to determine if it was likely a ‘plant’ or a potentially genuine piece of evidence that somehow survived the fire. However, as the crime scene has been mostly destroyed by reporters (and who knows who else), that little nugget of dot-joining information has been lost (and to add insult to injury the passport was seen to be casually discarded by the reporter).
As a warning to the reporter and others who have formed working hypothesis and even ‘conclusions’ based on little, – Nothing – absolutely nothing – should be taken at face value at a serious crime scene.
It takes years of experience and considerable knowlwdge of scientific priciples and forensic processes to deal with such scenes and a ‘conclusion’ is rarely if ever presented.
I have always presented my evidence simply as an objective list of facts – to be used by both the defence and prosecution (as evidence is objective it can be used to both ‘prove’ and ‘disprove’ a case).
I caution people from drawing any conclusion as to the identity of the bodies found – they could just as easily be Russian POWs, Civillians, or Ukrainian soldiers as easily as Mercs and NATO spooks / officers. I, you, we, they know nothing – that is why these scenes must be properly forensically processed by professionals.
I hope my comments have helped someone to join one or two dots, and have highlighted the need to control and preserve evidence even (especially) in times of war.
Thanks for the Info.
Excellent analysis. Truly a cat and mouse game. The mouse attempts misdirection and diversion in so many ways. But two can play thatgame…
Russian POws, civilians, and their-sisters would hardly have been an object of two copter rescue attempts.
Very doubtfully would the stuff have been separated from other corpses, the latter in neat far away bags.
A list of foreign western languages were heard during the siege and a few western
arms of different origin (german as one) found close to remains.
No azovist or UFA guy in the Azovstal catacombs would act any different than destroy the evidences If he KNOWS that the powerful enemy WILL inevitably take and storm the place in a few days.
The absent minded russians have found 20 K square miles of plenty of
crime scenes scattered all over the place.One more crime scene would it be picked up to preserve and keep journos at distance? maybe.
T Especially when he has
several weeks time to take such preventive measures. By the way NO whasotever big shots worth the pain of dangerous hellicopter rescues were found in the debris.
But it would be a mistake to gather I make a miserable point of honor out on this. Take it philosophical.
you forgot an important thing, each country with different culture and tradition does not work like USA or western countries.. their method can be slightly or very different, with often the same result as if it was USA methods.
Thanks, Forensic Science Guy.
My thoughts immediately on seeing amateurs stomping around in this setting, destroying evidence with every step.
The video is shocking both for its allegations and for the casual way the site is being tromped all over by amateurs, and not sequestered for careful forensic examination.
No one should be allowed in this site. It should be under lock and key.
Quite apart from the criminal, legal aspects, those are human remains and this is a burial site.
what is going shown in the film is basically desecration, and vandalism.
The supposed passport card also rang my alarm bells immediately.
How come this survives hot fire?
Now, in addition, contaminated with the reporter’s fingerprints . . .
Altogether very discouraging.
Undermines the important project of figuring out who was in Azovstal, and what happened there.
And even giving last rites to those who were likely murdered there.
An interesting fact of Avostal is the early reports of telecommunication intercepts that revealed 6, or was it 7, different languages being recognized. Yet, after the surrender we heard nothing of European, British, S. American, Asian or American prisoners. There was mention of 1 Canadian officer, but nothing concrete. So, what happened to them? Or were the reports wrong? Will we ever know? Certainly, the civilians who were rescued, along with the POWs must know something. The Russians are playing their cards very close to their chest. Hopefully when the war crimes trials begin, we will hear the truth.
I wish the Russians would be more open about this. It is bothering me that they are not.
As usual, I want to trust Putin and Russia – but there is too often some little thing to make me wonder whether “they are all in on it together” Including planning WW3.
One of my worries about Putin and Russia has been and is, why did they go along with the lies about that Covid “vaccine”? Why were Russians made to take that “vaccine” with the rest of the World?
“think every false flag from 9/11 to Paris shootings where passports have been dropped by the “terrorists” and found after surviving exposions, fires, plane crashes etc”
This refers there to the Mohammed Atta passport found in the remains of the Tower and reported by the media to have been found. Mohammed Atta, their leader, whose baggage was also the only baggage that did not get into the airplane after being turned in by him to the Airline company, left behind somehow and in which all the evidence, namely the instructions, the plan, the identities, etc. were found? It’s what “happened”, what we also read on the news.
That’s too much ‘unnecessary’ evil to be only human or a false flag…it must mean more than that.
The passport found in the remains of the World Trade Center was for Satam al-Suqami not Mohammed Atta.
See Judy Woodruff’s report on the PBS News Hour from April 21, 2022: There is a group of Azov soldiers walking inside Azovstal. If you go to 1 min 40 sec, as the group walks into the darkened room, there are two bodies hanging (from the ceiling? from somehwere as you only see their legs and lower body dangling) on the right side. The first one has a strap between his ankles as he hangs there.
No one on the PBS News Hour ever commented on this; maybe they didn’t notice, but it is their in the video.
Note: I believe the date was 4/21, but it may have been the day before.
Russians have over 2000 highly motivated witnesses. Also, there is most likely not a high priority in investigating murders of foreigners.
Exactly what I was going to say.
Russia characteristically tends to takes the simplist, most sensible with the quickest turnaround time to things; “NASA spent millions inventing a pen that writes in space, Russia used a pencil” – an old joke.
Torturing to get a answers is the simplest solution.
there are approximately 200000+ dead or missing ukrainian combatants, it would take years to decades to determine what happened.
Why would Russians care what had happened to the scum in the Azovstal? Whole of the former Ukraine is a crime scene but we all know who the culprits are.
“Why would Russians care what had happened to the scum in the Azovstal?”
I should think the answer is pretty obvious why Russia should care what happened here.
This is not a standard battlefield.
It is a very special site on a number of levels and potentially contains explosive information
One might as well ask why should Russia, and the world, care about US biolabs in Ukraine?
The Azovstal was the center of the world’s attention for at least a month, with speculation rife as to who was in there and what was going on.
Now that the Azovstal has fallen, suddenly no one gives a s— anymore about this?
No one wants answers?
Anyone who was murdered there is written off as “scum” and so it doesn’t matter who they were and who sent them there and what they were doing there?
I don’t think so.
And then the Russians will publish their findings in Western media where they will sway public opinion and convince everyone that NATO is backing Nazis. Right?
Your comment is useful, but this is only one crime scene in a brutal war that has been going on for 14 years. Your concept of a crime scene is one which occurs in an otherwise relatively peaceful civilian context.
Perhaps the crime scene at Azovstal is larger than any other but over 14 years there must be hundreds of such crime scenes. A forensic investigation is a luxury in an ongoing military and financial war.
@rr
I am not singling you out, but your comment is as good as any for my rebuke to all who have dismissed my concerns –
The investigation of potential War-Crimes is not, and never should be, considered a “luxury”. It is a duty.
The aparent attempted disposal of evidence of potential war crimes, or at least of evidence of undeclared foreign military personnel being involved in a war – should always be recorded properly.
Yes even during a war / conflict once the area has been secured (I understand Azovstal has been secured and is not an actually ‘active’ combat zone) crimes should be recorded and investigated, even if the “luxury” of a full forensic investigation is not possible or the political will for one forthcoming.
I am amazed at how many of those commenting on this matter seem to ‘know with certainty’ that the bodies in that room are of Nazis / Mercs / foreign combatants.
Maybe my years of training, my Degrees and Diplomas studied for, and my membership of Internationally recognised Professional bodies were a waste of time. Maybe my experience at crime scenes (which includes international terror investigations, bombings, shootings, and more) is simply wasted.
Why? Well, there now appears to be some sort of technology which allows people to watch a 2 minute video clip of someone walking around somewhere and make firm legal / forensic conclusons based on that.
I wish I had access to such technology in the past as it would have saved me years of trouble and toil.
If it is later discovered that Civillians (and perhaps Russian POWs) were killed and then “cremated” at Azovstal by Nazis – and that no one even attempted to recover evidence, much less properly investigate matters (allowing the murderers will go away unpunished), then those who have “wriiten this off” should be ashamed of themselves.
Also shameful is the response in some of the comments to this situation – having no regard to the bigger picture and blinded by the same sort of “phobia” towards the Ukrainians that the British and Americans have towards the Russians.
I do not know the identity of those whos remains were cremated – and neither does anyone else commenting on this issue.
I hope for the sake of those who have described those bodies as the remains of “scum”, “dirt”, “filth”, “nazis”, etc that those remains do not turn out to be the remains of Civillians murdered, or the victims of bio-lab experiments, or even murdered Russian POWs (but because such investigations to determine this are apparently a “luxury”, we are now very unlikely to know for sure).
PS
I will make this my last comment on this matter and will not reply to any comments directed to me as I dont want to drawn into a bigger discussion. I simply leave this here for people not blinded by hate (on whatever side) to consider.
Finally, May all the victims of this war rest in peace – whoever and wherever they may be, and whatever side they are on.
Forensic Science Guy………you live in some make believe western world that would actually find it beneficial to hold those to account for the very war crimes that it has itself actively denied, covered up and even initiated.
If they were identified as foreigners and even more, identified as being executed, then the west would simply say it was the Russians who did the deed, not Azov. Why would the Russians want to carry out such an investigation? To what purpose then? Bucha, on the other hand, was called for. Why did the West not accept Russia’s invitation then? We all know why, don’t we?
Such investigations are a waste of time. Think Syria. Think OPCW
Dear Forensic Science Guy
You are so right, there should be a thorough investigation of all
those cases. I see the question more from an archeologists point of view, meaning that
later, much later, maybe we will be able to shed some light what really happened.
There is still a war going on and there are thousands of potential
crime-scenes. Russia considers the peoples republics of Donetsk and
Lugansk as independent states and Russia is simply helping militarily.
These two statelets don’t have the infrastructure to send forensic
teams to all places that needed investigations. The police-force is
busy with interrogating POWs, they also could lay their hands on a lot
of SBU documents, which need to be reviewed.
When potential crime scenes, such as Azovstal are captured, then the
first teams to go in are mine-sweeps, then the dead bodies have to be
removed, then comes the Press. By then most of the relevant forensic
clues have disappeared, or have been trampled on.
In the beginning of the war the allied forces implored the Ukrainians
to remove their death soldiers, that never happened, maybe because
claiming your death, implies that you have to acknowledge that they
exist. When the war started the Ukraine had almost no casualties,
while the Russians perished by thousands (according to the narrative).
The local population started to bury corpses for hygiene’s sake, many
are religious and considered this their Christian duty.
A video by Eva Bartlett (Western Claims of Russian Mass Graves Near Mariupol Another Fake News Hoax–I Know, I Went To See – https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=286&v=CeEnCcn1S3I&feature=emb_logo) might give you some insight, but most of the
sources I know are in Russian.
The Russians are in control of that plant. If they are in control of it and they committed the murders why would they want to conduct the forensic examination of those bodies? Remember Katyn Wood? German murderers were happy to have foreign investigators investigate a war crime committed by the Soviets.
Forensic Science Guy….have you had a chance to look at the 9/11 evidence? Oh right…the US Gov shipped off the scraps within days. Why think about Ukraine when the biggest false flag operation in the 21st Century is not common knowledge.
I am ex military and police
While your knowledge and sentiments regarding this incident are both noble and correct, there is one issue that trumps all
The living take priority over the dead
Russians have much more than forensic.
They have mouths.
Just from making them talk they’ll get all they would get from a crime scene torough inspection.
They’ll hang some just for being there , so any pointing finger will be a fine investigation.
They can shovel bones in a box just to get DNA to know who they were … then hang anyone at which a finger is pointed.
You’d be more useful in Donbass mass-grave exhumations
An end like the garbage that was their lives. How much did they charge the West for their dirty work? Perhaps giving them up for missing allows them to withdraw money from their bank accounts and steal them.
Maybe the supposed Western high level targets Cols, Gens, that were in Avozstal were so high they needed elimination. We heard about them, they were thought to be down there, no one has seen or heard from them.
Cheers M
Can’t let people with too much info be captured. They put two stars on the wall at CIA just as Avostal was falling. I expect that those two were shot in the back of the head before the burn.
Two stars is no way enough, the damn entire wall should be covered with them and then some.
This was obviously a desperate cover-up by Ukrainian commanders to obfuscate the presence of foreign mercenaries, possibly some high level military advisers as well, and to avoid having the Russians capture and interrogate them. I wonder if any of these soldiers were shot by ‘friendly fire’ before being incinerated, and how their governments will respond to this evidence, other than with stubborn denial. Once this war is over, hopefully there will be a comprehensive revelation of the contemptible criminality of the West.
“comprehensive revelation”? No way. The terrible thing is that, not too long ago, until shortly after the Snowden revelations, the West (USA, UK, Germany) had a more-or-less free press. That has gone.
Nowadays, the “respectable” media (New York Times, the BBC, the Guardian, Der Spiegel) will print or broadcast only what their governments want published.
Operation Mockingbird dates back to the early 1960s.
Since its inception on July 26 1947, the CIA has boasted of tits control and ownership of Journalist and entire news publications, both print an broadcast. Since then, the control and capabilities have only grown.
Udo Ulfkotte famously broke ranks with his fellow prostitutes and reported in detail about his control by the CIA at the behest of the US government. se the below link
https://worldbeyondwar.org/german-journalist-blows-whistle-cia-controls-media/
The American DEEP STATE has its roots in the “City of London”
Control of the media is as old as the private central banks
Yes… but as is common with evil regimes, the velvet gloves only come off when the people start to suspect the regime is evil.
I do not read them anymore. Credibility lost is for good.
It was my understanding that the ammonia plant was destroyed by a missile salvo
It’s clear from the events surrounding the Azovstal siege, that there were persons there, that the Empire of Lies did not want falling into Russian Federation hands.
The several costly and largely failed attempts to extract these individuals are proof of this.
It is well within the realm of reason that after the failed extraction, they were ‘liquidated’ to prevent their capture.
Hopefully forensic analysis by the FSB can determine the truth of what happened.
This needs to be exposed as deeply and widely as possible! It might make potential ”advisers” think their plans over!
(I was not at all surprised by this news)
Exactly. Multiple suicidal helicopter & ground attempts to extricate fueled the rumors.
And a retired Canadian General with legal problems was known to have gone to Ukraine. His name (eludes me now, Cloutier?) was very similar to the US general initially rumored to be there.
Cloutier was the US NATO scumbag that was allegedly captured. The Canadian is the sex pest “Retired” Lt Gen Trevor Cadieu.
Both cut from the same cloth though.
@ ZhukovG
Very good point, connecting the dots between the failed extractions and the assassinations.
They were really desperate risking so many lives to get some of those VIP out, that they lost so many men in the effort speaks volumes about their level of importance. They could not get them out, so they had no other option but to kill them and try as much as they could to erase any traces of them.
Tough lock.
I seriously doubt forensic analysis can do anything.
If you are aware of the forensic work done in Argentina with victims of the military dictatorship, you might know the difficulties. And those people’s remnants were “intact,” minus the torture and the bullet holes.
Lone Wolf
The Argentine forensic team ( Mercedes‘ doretti et al ) is the best these days.
Yeah, the way they were so Desperate to ‘extract’ those ‘mercenaries’ tells us that they Were Not common hired killers…. I’m guessing that once it became clear that NATO/FUSSA Officers were going to be Captured, the decision was made to Kill Them. These Orders came directly from the “General Staff” of the Evil Empire, to whom every one of their Minions are “Expendable”.
Good Riddance to Bad Rubbish.
If they were killed to avoid capture then the orders were given via phone or radio; one would think that RF forces listened.
Will be interesting to see what the captured Azov scum have to say when interrogated. And I’m certain that during their interrogations the gloves will come off. The interrogators won’t be the “polite” men that handled their surrender and capture.
This reminds me of the “special mission“ which one of the Azovite leaders said they were carrying out late in the siege, one which he later said it was complete. I wonder if this was a coded reference to the cleanup detail?
Speculation can go sky high on this issue, however, it is useless.
If the mercenaries were killed to keep them from spilling secrets, we will never know the why because that was the reason they were killed. Who knows what the agreement was for them to go fight in Ukraine, I doubt they signed a contract stipulating their own demise in case of potential capture by the enemy. Regardless, neo-nazis make their own rules, killing gives them their sense of “power” and makes them feel “superior” to others (as long as they have a gun), and have no qualms killing even those who came to help them.
On another note, those people could have been killed in battle, their bodies incinerated to protect their identities. Who knows if a forensic analysis could determine the way they died, very difficult to deal with ashes and charred bodies.
In any event, good riddance.
Who knows what karma they were carrying in their backpacks that came to hunt them.
Lone Wolf
PS: Talking about karma, take a look at this neo-nazi kapo, now cleaning the prison grounds. He looks like a zombie in the long process of reversing back to human. He doesn’t look that threatening, does he?
https://voenhronika.ru/publ/vojna_na_ukraine/sekretnoe_intervju_volyny_kombriga_36_j_brigady_na_azovstali_ehkskljuziv_iz_sizo_2022/60-1-0-12466
I thought this guy was a pretty big shot nazi at Azovstal. I would think he will be facing a firing squad or the hangman’s rope soon.
The only way to get closer to reality on what was there is a serious interrogatory of highest ranking Azovstal prisoners. Using Gitmo methods, maybe.
Surely some of the fighters captured alive at Azovstal have seen or heard things and the Russian investigators will provide partial answers or alternatively one of the captured might write a book on what happened underground at Azovstal.
speculations are good, since more and more people will search for truth at the end.
if an event is not speculated it will disappear from the history.
This will make a great recruitment video. Quite an appropriate an ending for Nazi Mercs.
C*IA tying up loose ends.
“should you or any of your mercs be caught or killed, the Secretary will disavow any knowledge of your actions. This message will self-destruct in ten seconds.Good luck”
What a waste of human lives, all for a roll of toilet paper called the US dollar.
I am sure, SOME people left Azovstal by sea. That route was open to a few VIPs for a period of a month to do so. I am talking a 10 people a time under the right circumstances.
It will come out during the interrogations.
The less well known British Special Boat Service, are one of the few forces with the ability and kit, to get someone out by sea. We’ll never know if they did, they are much more secretive than the SAS. If they did a special op, it would likely only be for someone very special. Not tens of people.
It is interesting that Adolf Hitler ended the same way – burned beyond recognition.
I think that Russian leadership was counting on this eventuality as a demoralizing instrument for next wave of “advisors”, ie. “We won’t kill you, your guys will.”
It is unbelievable how thoroughly and comprehensively Russians are winning.
All sides claim that Hitler’s burned remains were found in Berlin close to his “bunker”.
The possibility that Hitler was evacuated to S. America is more than modern historians can cope with.
Imagine the ramifications of that fact reverberating across the hallowed academic halls in various “homelands”.
Some claim that Hitler passed away quietly in 1962 and about a year later JFK was assassinated.
The Nazi doctrine was a very powerful social tool, so powerful that the cult is, to this day, not universally condemned.
Of course the public are not allowed to express a contrarian view, no matter how much “evidence” they present.
Once presented the evidence and the witness is trashed or eliminated to maintain the “Empire of Lies”.
From the first weeks I have been reading accounts from Russian and Donbass forces , watching videos made by them, and the theme of Ukrainian forces concealing the bodies of killed western troops , “mercenaries” (not all of them are mercenaries in the strict sense,) is consistent. Before the fall of Azovstal Chechen and Donbass soldiers talked of the Ukrops concealing bodies in the forest and sinking them in rivers, or burning them when they had time to..It will probably take a long time but the facts of the story will eventually emerge
Western nation after another have debunked almost totally claims of thousands of killed mercenaries.
The Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR) is reporting as of 23 June that they had 2,183 soldiers killed and 9,196 wounded (4.21-to-1 wounded-to-killed ratio.
The question here is if 50,000 Ukrainian soldiers have been killed in war there should be around 200,000 wounded/injured cases. But where are clear evidences of such large scale military medicare patients?
Very commonly, the Ukrainian wounded are left behind. Many with injuries which would not be fatal if they received medical treatment, even a blood transfusion. Many die in the field. Those that are still living when the allied forces arrive are treated by the allies and recorded as POWs. The wounded-to-killed ratio for Ukraine will be very different than for the RF or LDNR militia, where the wounded are evacuated to hospitals. Reportedly, Ukraine has 60,000 MIAs. How many are dead? How many defected? How many have deserted and fled to a 3rd country? We many never know.
The way the Western and Ukrainian media are, Ukraine could be getting beaten as badly as the Axis at Stalingrad — with proportional casualties — and everybody would still be urging Zelensky to hang tough and we’ll help him retake all of the Donbass and Crimea because muh sacred borders etc. etc.
It’s ridiculous.
There’s been news of injured Ukrainians being treated in Poland and other countries. Plus you have the western and central parts or Ukraine which are mostly untouched, and the soldiers are likely treated in hospitals there.
You still believe the Lamestream, lol.
There are many documented cases of Ukrops just leaving their dead and wounded plus the propaganda ´enforcers of the Nazis wouldn´t let something like that get filmed and in Western “hero country” 404 you disappear if the GESTAPO catches you breaking the rules.
You could go by elenskyy and Arestovich figures of 100-300 KIA with “several hundreds” WIA/MIA per day and count on your own, no?
Is it possible to analyse DNA from remnants of these wretches – and then compare with DNA of their relatives?
What relatives? You would have to know who they were to trace relatives. The burning seemed pretty thorough.
I think that mass testing due to plandemia resulted in pretty big database of people’s DNA. So we might be able to apply some kind of “reverse engeneering” by matching patterns – and thus discover families of those killed.
Well, the DNA CAN be extracted from the teeth pretty much intact, but to whom do you make the comparisons? Who are the suspected relatives?
Worldwide databases. You’d be surprised how family one has, and some of these might know about a relative who took off to Ukraine.
Not much info on what is going on with those captured other than the two Brits and one Moroccan that got the death penalty. There were plenty of mercenaries/higher up in Azovstal. I guess time will tell….maybe.
During WW2 in the British army it was not unkown for orders to be given that certain key personnel were to be killed rather than allowe them to be captured and tortured to give information.
Wow quite the retirement package, gotta love the cremation option, no pesky coffins with the wrong remains in em’.
Would the excuse be they were killed by Russians? Rarely go out of my way to see the MSM. Well seems consistent with the Nazi theme, we are superior to all others.
That same feeling, (you are not part of the gang) the expression, “f the eu’ gives ya. So the Nazis really never quit running the West. Hell most aren’t even embarrassed with their accents from some cheap ww2 flick. ve vill ave everything and be unhappy. Still
Must be big money to go over if the only out they give ya is smoke by the water? Suppose they all Oded first?
Maybe its one of those you got the big c curse and if you go your family wins deal. Or is there a die hard gung ho gang fantasizing how they will go out in a blaze of gore? Forgot to visualize themselves as the losers.
Underground weapons manufacturing facilities. There’s a well placed metaphor in there somewhere. Live by the sword die in the forge that made it. Or was it cast? Anyway they got the point of it all.
Couldn’t have happened to a nicer bunch of folks.
We do not know who these people were. We think they were mercs but they could have been Ukrainian civilians or people working at a bioweapons lab in the bowels of the Azovstal.
Whomever they were – their relatives will probably never know what happened to them.
we have some hints.
1. The intact corner of a US passport
2. The expensive western weapons that were burned also to hide their origins, and I bet you there are no serial numbers left of the burned remains.
3. More foreigners with AZOV in those steel plant catacombs early in the conflict and only three among the captured. They either got dead or got out.
Dear ctemple,
You are thinking in the right direction. Just take it one step further.
What general uses a sniper rifle? Precisely! So perhaps a special service soldier. A mercenary perhaps, then why destroy the body? Again, that destruction suggests hiding a fact, but that should not be necessary for a mercenary, so perhaps a definite military member, and if there was one, there were others.
Your last statement is correct, and some would definitely have gotten out, but the O.R.s, well that’s a different story as the crematorium tells us.
Volksturm getting annihilated. a tragic senseless slaughter by NATO. the 100 series formations are Volksturm
https://readovka.news/news/102539
If many of those mercenary rats are indeed dead,there will be a lot of explaining to do with their families why they just vanished one day.
Considering all the recent cases of SADS, they could simply say they died suddenly or unexpectedly.
It wouldn’t exactly be a lie either.
So, modern day Nazis use crematoria to incinerate inconvenient bodies just as their WWII forebears did. It all comes full circle, does it not?
Hollow hoaxing? Careful.
Or what the oligarchs who control the government’s tell them to broadcast.
This is the tragedy of all this conflict that anyone is being killed or injured on any side but the EU leadership and Obama / Soros run UKN Govt is to blame.
Coverup going on.
What’s a passport card? I have never heard of any such thing.
It looks like a drivers license, but says passport card. United States does not issue drivers licenses anyway.
The USA does issue small laminated “passport cards”, though I had thought they were only valid for surface transport and border-crossings within North America and the Caribbean.
No doubt others know much more than I.
Very legit, I was sent one with my most recently issued passport. It’s basically a credit-card size version of the old fashioned ID, don’t recall it’s limitations. Might be that it’s only for travel within the US and to/from Canada. Definitely more convenient to carry.
Forensic Science Guy:
I understand fully what you are saying.
I am with you.
I am shocked by the cavalier, know-it-all attitude of some commenters here toward the individuals and the whole site shown. We have no idea who these people were. It is very important to try to establish who they were. The Azovstal situation was/is not a typical battleground site but is/was Ground Zero for many of the more complex features of this conflict. I should think it would be crucial for the Russians to establish—even if it takes time and a lot of effort—exactly who was in there and what happened to them.
Also, it seems to me that these murders are not typical “wartime” deaths as on a battlefield. Whoever killed these people –it sure looks like they killed helpless prisoners. .
There is such a thing as a USA passport card, but its use is limited.
“Entering the United States at land border crossings and sea ports-of-entry from:
Canada
Mexico
The Caribbean
Bermuda
The passport card cannot be used for international air travel.
Real ID: Passport books and cards are alternatives to a state-issued ID. ”
https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/need-passport/card.html
I had not heard of this. Since a driver’s license with biometric info also serves as a valid ID throughout the USA, the only reason i can see for a passport card would be for people with no license or to go to the four locations mentioned. Of course “the Caribbean” is a geographic, not a political, entity, so that sounds a bit stupid.
Yeah, I have a U.S. passport and the document fragment doesn’t look at all like mine. Although I’m a civilian.
The Ukie military are some strange birds.. One seldom hears of an army which abandons its dead all over the country, or hides behind civilians as a common tactic.. Now we see how they reward their foreign volunteers, as if we should be surprised at anything they do, at this point..
I heard a few months ago that… well, has anybody ever seen that Far Side cartoon “Horse Hospitals”?
Yeah. That.
I suspect that these individuals were more than just regular mercenaries. After all, why go through with the trouble of killing them and carefully burning the corpses? Russian intelligence detected the presence of hundreds of Westerners within the Azovstal tunnels, yet basically none ever surfaced. These must have been regular Western military and intelligence assets that Western governments instructed Zelensky to eliminate and carefully hide any evidence of.
I remember one of the Banderite leaders (I forget which one) in the Azovstal stating before his capture that he was carrying out his “final mission” in the tunnels. Here is another grim thought. How many of these dead Westerners voluntarily committed suicide and how many did the Banderites execute? Russia, if it has not already done so, needs to thoroughly investigate this and pry all the information out of the Banderite POWs. Obviously, Western governments and mass media will do everything possible to prevent the truth from coming out.
@ Nate
Whoever these people were, and whatever their task, we could say with all certainty the West was planning long term to attack Russia with all their might. Azovstal was a lot more than a garrison, it was a C&C center in preparation for the attack on Donbass and beyond, Russia. We might never know the type of weapons these nazi trash and their CIA/MI6/Mossad handlers were getting ready to activate, including biochem and nuclear weapons.
We can surmise, however, the stakes were too high to let these people alive, the evidence would have been so condemning, their facade would have fallen and the Ukronazis would have been exposed to the world as the murderous criminals they are. I don’t have much hope an investigation can take us anywhere. However, a few secrets would have to come out from the filth now in Lefortovo and Donbass prisons.
Lone Wolf
Knowing Russia’s need to discredit the “West” and destroy the fake narrative coming out of washington, London, Brussels, etc they must get to the truth. I certainly am betting on it.
They need to get all of the dirt aired in public to wake up the apathetic and ignorant muppets that reside in the US/Zionist occupied countries.
It’s a big task for sure.
In a similar ending, today more than 100 members of the Kraken battalion were killed in a strike near Karkov. Adding to the numbers eliminated from the Azovstal complex, and 57 generals and officers of the AFU killed in the similar strike of the same region last week. RU has launched a probe into their activities involving torture and killing of RU Pow’s, linked to another article on this page.
http://www.rt.com/news/558094-russia-ukraine-kraken-unit/
it’s obvious, those criminal mercenaries working for the international deep state that caused so many troubles on the Earth by creating fake wars, hatred, corruption, mafia methods in various countries finally have been executed and burned. Who did that? surely the good guys….
The probable reason the Russkies are not so zealous at identifying the bodies is that they already know who they are. Keeping it secret could give them a card to play with somebody.
Nothing fancy just plain old if these bodies are found WWIII is officially on. Active duty guys from the coalition.
Using proxies, is far from straight up old school, we stand behind our actions. It just has that sneaky, lo life stink to it. Kinda why they hate Julian Assange so much. This is the sort of thing we do to protect your freedom. Not pretty but welcome to our world.
Thts interesting, aside from the horrible implications of this fairly obvious act of foul play or even homicide against foriegn mercenaries.
It was only last week the buzz about the heroic “foriegn legion” of soldiers fighting with the Ukranians against the evil Russian’s “invasion”, then that fropped off the radar. I gigured like many they where trapped in the Lishichanse – several donuts pocket, and their comm’s where blocked or non existant maybe due to jamming or simply losing radio contact to outside.
Yet i read a couple things which mentioned the gelatin plant in the industrial complex they where holed up in, and my suspicious mind got to wondering just why the Uk’s where so resistant to holding on to a tactical lost cause, why are they fighting and holding out so long for essentially by any military standards what is a forlorn hope? And why further back the Uk’s first trapped their own men on the other side if the river, then supposedly 1200-2000 foriegn merc’s are rushed in to fight and die in an eventual foregone convlusion they could not stop the Russian allies from finishing their rescue of the rest of the Remaining territory of the Russian ancestral lands. Something seemed non sensical about it, or maybre the propaganda and agitrop value for the empire of lies Uk proxies tiumphant last stand or something to the politickal soin doctoring. After all they can not win the physical war and the political war is all they have basically where they can create plausibly deniable fantastical false narratives.
But that did not add up either as it was plain if tgey did not skeedaddle out of the pocket, even when the Russian’s did the really smart tac-strat thing of always leaving the enemy a tiny escape route. You win more easily and catch more POW’s and have kess casualties that way.
Even though its become wuite obvious the Ukranian army was never built to be a peer level military machine to Russia’s, the UK’s with the empires full assistance created a terror and reprisal army, its purpose is a diaspora generator, to punish and pogrom, systematic genocide, terrorise and liquidate and completely wealth strip mine down to the seed corn the entire Donbasz and related regions, of as many ancestral Russians as possible. Aside from this kind of Ukranian military force that was never an Army per say, in the classical sense, but a police state military integral to a proxy dictatorship and international organized crime syndicate of the west’s terrible expansionist hegemony, something really doesn’t add up.
But i got to thinking few days ago, what Nazi’s are, what Nazi’s do, and genocide is us, is what Nazism is about, after all they deem themselves the master race, Russian’s are insects, not even something smelly worth scraping off their shoe. Uktimate dehumanization. Ultimate othering of undesirable’s, “Unttermunchen’s in the nazi German vernacular is it?”
Then another piece droos in my face, this about The Potsdam Agreements between the Allies and Russia, Churchil, Rossevelt and Stalin when they met and hashed out each their part in de-nazification of Germany and its people, they determined to hold all the Nazi party members responsible and make sure that they would not left to rise again. And how Putin and his people have long made bones how the allies, particularly Brittain and the US not only inhibited but stopped oersecution of Nazi’s they went as far as to install more Nazi party officials in west Germany than Hitler had working in the entire third riech. Huh? What, did i read that correctly? Like WTF buddy?
Well can you imagine that, and if its true, and i have watched Putin and his folks closely, they do something very inoque, President Trump and hos trusted people do similar, that no matter what, not deviating one iota, they observe the rule of law, in Putin’s case he and his warriors go further, the add to that the rule of the laws of war.
Aside from the honorable thing, being its the right thing you do and always adhere to the concept the only way is the right and lawful way refardless of how ilkegitimate the enemy is no matter how vile or squalid or depraved or inhuman the enemy is, you always, and more so than anything, you must never deviate from established rules of law and the color of those laws, too, the reasons are legitimacy but its another maybe even more critical imperative, this enemy, and i see it this way in no uncertain terms in my homeland of America, this enemy of all good folks and rightful things, like all that is the Beautiful the Right and the Good, this enemy of us, iys ruthless, cunning like nothing else, sly, its deviant to the nth degree, in all forms of this war thats been going on generations now, and something telks me it’s nazis or what looks to be nazi like, bit whatever it is that operates and creeps in the fringes of tge shadows, you can not make one tiny mistake you mist adhere to legitimacy as a drowning man clings to air, you can not deviate or make a mistake or this enemy slips thru those loop holes like a greased pig commited to slaughter. It is everywhere with the 2legged rats and traitors running things clown shiw USA,the swamp and all its depravity and filthy lucre, Like as how Mr. Trump no matter what stuck to the rules the rule of law no matter what. That way they can not blackmail or extort you and converge you and your one of them, in the network, a cabal asset, and they can make you do anything the conspiracy wants and needs or taking the cabal dirt nap.
And this goes all the way to ukraine, and 2014 onwards, to right now.
Putin is crystal clear correct to hold them to Potsdam, aside from Russia even when the nomenklatura and the Soviet ownRussia in fee simple, Russia fulfilked their oart of the agreement of Potsdam, they are correct justified beyond all foubt not to trust the empire of lies and dissimulations. Oh Brother are they ever.
But thats layning the groundwork for another thing. Its really vile, incarnate evil it be. I got no way in a million years to ever prove something here, but by The Lord, i got that amygdala gut sense about this, it adds up too, going all the way oit on the limb, dolkars to fonuts whats in that industrial park, is something they realky do not want 88% land know they are doing, its that gelatine plant, they where using it to dispose of tge bodies of those they where liquidating, they where making gelatine out of human beings at that plant, its what the huge tanks if nitric acid are for, to break down the protiens of the bodies they created from genocide.
Look at all the things the empire of lies is about, everywhere you look its genocide, pogrom, world wars, never ending wars against good folks acrosss God’s Green Earth, its what they do, murder in massive amounts all the people possible by any means possible. Its hellmouth weit huge. From trafficking and organ legging babies and chikdren, thru instruments of murder and genocide just like Roe verses Wade, or go into the Donbass, its totally rural, cabal assets in all their guises and skinsuits they live them sime rural areas where they can systematically dissolve entire tribes, cultures, peoples, quietly, its what all those NGO’s are for, himan trafficking of eoman chikdren and babies. This thing this IT, this cabal, this globo=peedo rules based order their singular polar world order, it thrives, its instruments its inhuman agents literalky is sent hither to eat out literally the goid folks existance. You think arms and drug trafficking is profitable, well you got another thing coming in how profitable the trafficking inchikdren and babies is. Its another thing too, all whi commit genocide have it to deal with, it can not be avoided, its on the vile practical level i’m speaking of, put it crude so its unmistakable, how do you dispose of thousands, tens, tens of thousands of human corpses? Its a real problem. That much meat in one body dump, once its past certain numbers, it never decomposes, it turns into human soup, a kind of bio-environment that lasts centuries. Think i’m making shit up? OK. Hows this then. Worked at a superfund site, in America what the EPA in the 80’s classified as industrial poluution sites so bad tgey fenced them off exactly like was done at Chernobyl after the reactor core melted down and impolded. This site i was at, it was where a tannery which started in the mid 1800’s and ran up to the 70’s dumped nobody onows but a million is not any exageration, near around that many cow sheep goat horse and pig carcasses, they used an unusually deep hollow with geologically tadically steep rift walls. What we did at this superfund site was install a liner in this hollow so the juice from all that meat and bones from over a century could be piped to a disposal olant and stop all the tanbery chemicals, heavy metals and what no words can describe of foul stuff. The Cat D10 bulldozers, they cost new 2milliln apiece, we buried them and lots of the equipment used to move all that gage a maggit stench from one side to anotger to get this rubber liner under it all then cap it off. You had to wear a viro suit to operate service and reoair that equipment. The stink could not be removed from anything that had any length of constant contact with what was in that trench. Buried like 6-7 million dolkars of equipment and materials in that holow of hell. The smell is indescribable. Took weeks to wash it out of your hair, off your skin out of your nose and your memory. Down in that hollow was cows skinned and dumped, like 50 or more years, that had not begun to decompose past the first stage of stink, down at the bottom flesh had not reach full decomppsition. Pretty gross and nasty right? Guarantee it. Well Hitler and his nazi’s it appears had a similar problem. Give it a good think. Put the ol’ critical thinking cap on. Consider this if you will, whats 10,000 dead human bodies in a trench like. Go ahead, inagine all that meat. Its a lot of flesh. That much meat needs a lot of air to fully break down, but anerobic activity in a sealed environment creates a kind of its own sustainable environment, talking literally tons of enzymes. And juice coming from all that meat because tge human body is like70% water to begin with. Ukky dude, nasty like you can not imagine, so thise nazi’s they being the effecient industrius German’s they are had the mother of invention nipping at their heels, and a world potentialky finding out they got all that meat from how many people did they murder? Some say 6 million. Thats like an order of magnitude compared to that dead cow pit at that tannery superfund site.
Maybe i got a sick mind from seeing almthat rotting meat if dead cows, but i tell you this, using a gelatin olant to get rid of the evidence of mass genocide of Russian Ukranian’s thats simply an excelkent outstanding solution to a realky difficult problem. In fact, think how much money was created selling that gelatine, and collogen, a radt of organic materials, once you start to break it down with nitric acid. And you know what, they fed that gelatine to us, bet dollars to donuts it was shipped all over tge world too, used in every kind of processed food, go look at an ingredients label sometime. There’s something else here and it speaks to something, the conspiracy thats really what the west is now, what rules is inthe west, wanna bet against me those badtards laughed all the way to the bank they made all of us cannibals, made us eat eachother, snd if you teally want to go there, makes you wonder now, what really is in a McDonalds hamburger. Imagine the profits from al that meat they did not need to raise feed it grain ship it all over process and package and refridgerate it before it got to your supermarket meat section or gast food resturaunt. What if Soylent Green was actually real? Cabal loves to do that. Its uktimate narciccism, Projection. Its perfect, those you genocide you feed to the living who you have not yet liquidated, they actually pay for their own genocide.
Don’t know bout anyone but myself, but they burned thise walestern merc’s because they knew what that gelatin plant was for what they ran thru it, and the Russian allies where close real close they had to do a rush job, the gelatin works moght not been sble to dispose of all the evidence or war dmage stopped it, the Uktonazi’s sent in the only gorce they had capable of hokding up the Russian allied advance so they could dissapear all signs of genocide. And like the clinton’s, need to take care of loose ends, but instead its a couple hundred merc’s maybe sheep dipped see eye ay contract mercenaries, may be some where in Kiev during euromaiden and hepled shoot all those color revolutionaries. Maybe something and it was bad and it needed to be dissapeared, so they put on a big feast one night for their glorious foriegn legion brothers inarms, and thise nice nazi’s and banderights whinever hurt even a flea, honoring their brave foriegn brothers, tainted that feast with some drug that put everyone into happy dream land and they stavked those bous like cordwood on thise racks, maybe they just busheacked them and shot them in one fell swoop, whatever, whats 200 merc’s anyways, half would get the dirt nap incombat eventually, stack up a few pallets if thermite grenades, maybe a old napalm bomb from old soviet inventory, light that puppy up and that concrete bunker is instant hell fire on earth. Crispy critter good by one very loose end. Kill alot of bords with one stone.
Yah got to consider what this thing is thats taking the form of nazi. Bet Putin and Trump they know, its something thats almost incomprehensible to is good folks. Something we are not capable of thinking exists. Something evil incarnate and its been lurking operating along the fringes of the shadows a long time and right now is that Armegeddon time its hapoening its come around after all this time and its really the last battle between all thats the beautiful the right and the good verses the darkness thats awful and horrible and most of us have long past lost knowledge of it. Hard to say. But lot of things suddenly starting to add up and create a picture.
That is pretty ugly. Hardly believable.
Like dropping a ‘hellfire’ missile or three, on a wedding or funeral, to get 1 guy you don’t like, who might be nearby.
Simple minds of Azov comanders have thought the fire will destroy the evidence. Than might me true in 19 century but today is ridiculous to think that will work.
If DPR forensic team is keen to dig into the identities of the bone fragments it might resurface some disappearance of Mariupol residents.
Hope they burnt only dead ones.