Dear friends,
I have to honestly say that I am totally discouraged by many of the reactions I got to the column by Catire about Venezuela yesterday. As I have written it in my introduction, I knew that this would get some people really angry at me, but I have to admit that I did not expect such a nasty and primitive reaction. I won’t even got into the insulting comments which the moderators removed or the hate mail I got. What baffles me most is now many of my accuser did exactly what I had predicted and chose to resort to personal attacks against me and Catire.
I am sincerely grateful to those of you who did attack Catire’s article on its substance and who provided a fact based and logical criticism of his allegations. Alas, you were the minority but I do want to thank you.
Many comments were expression of outrage at the crimethink I had committed by allowing an anti-Chavista to express his views. Apparently, sacred cows exist not only in India.
As Saint-Just said:
Pas de liberté pour les ennemis de la liberté!
Right?
Maybe this is why my offer to post a rebuttal has not been accepted (yet?).
At this point I am frankly too discouraged and disgusted with it all to further bother with this thread: I won’t close it, but don’t expect me to participate.
But I do want to say this:
What really gets to me are not the accusations, the name calling or the condescending remarks but the fact that so many seem to totally misunderstand the point of this blog, why I created the Saker community and the kind of values which I, and those who joined, me are trying to oppose to the ideological discourse of the corporate media and much of the blogosphere. This is what really gets to me: that so many commentators fell right back into rigid ideological and reflexive stances which is exactly the kind of attitude which this blog is attempting to defeat.
[Did any of my accusers even bother to read a single word of my foreword to Catire’s article?!]
This does make me feel that all my efforts have been futile and in vain. I know that is not true, but that is how it feels.
In the future I will continue to post articles I do not agree with (in part or fully) and I will continue to raise difficult and even painful topics even when they directly affect a member of the worldwide Resistance to Empire. Maybe this is naive, but I hope that with time more people will understand why I chose to do so. But right now I feel completely discouraged.
The Saker
Please keep up the good work you are doing, unfortunately a large portion of the Western population have become ‘We the Sheeple’ . As Neitzche, Goebbels and even George Orwell stated, control the messenger and repeat the message often enough and they will believe.
Plse don’t let the sheeple discourage you, I am sure there are a vast number of us out there who are still able to think for ourselves.
Thank You
I agree with Peter and Saker I might not agree with the article but then again other views are always enjoyed.
Thank you Saker.I’m glad you posted the article (with the disclaimer).Its important to see the tricks the Empire supporters are using.I don’t see why some people should get mad at you.You explained at the start what you were doing.The rebuttals I saw were mostly well done.I frankly would love to write a rebuttal article.But I don’t have the talent as a writer to do it.I have a lot of facts I include in my posts.And in short posts I’m “alright” at writing.But there are many far more talented people that write better on here.
Having said that.I was wondering what you think of a new report that says Yatsenyuk served with the terrorists in Chechnya in the 1990’s fighting against Russia.It says the Russians are investigating that (one would think they’d have known about it).If true,its quite a bombshell scandal:
“Hybrid Warrior Yatsenyuk Fought against Russians in Chechnya!”
The Investigative Committee of Russia has questions for the prime minister of Ukraine Arseniy Yatsenyuk, who fought against Russian troops in Chechnya in the mid-1990s. The chairman of the Investigative Committee Alexander Bastrykin said this in an interview posted on the website and in the paper “Rossiyskaya Gazeta” dated 9 September.
The Russian investigators have questioned in connection with participation in the armed conflict in Chechnya and Ukraine, along with Dmitry Korchinski, Igor Mazur, Dmitry Yarosh, Valery Bobrovich, Oleg and Andrei Tyhanibok and Vladimir Hominy, and the name of Arseniy Yatsenyuk was given. They accused him of involvement in crimes against members of the Russian Armed Forces and the Interior Ministry of Russia in the course of counter-terrorist operation in Chechnya in 1994-1995.
“The investigation also found that in these years as part of the punitive group “Argo”, and then later “Viking”, led by Alexander Muzychko, Yatsenyuk fought against servicemen of the Russian Armed Forces,” – said Bastrykin.
“According to the investigation, Yatsenyuk took part in at least two of the armed clashes that took place December 31, 1994 on the square in Grozny in February 1995, near the city hospital in Grozny, as well as torture and executions of captured soldiers of the Russian army in Oktyabrsky district of Grozny on Jan. 7, 1995” – said Bastrykin.
“According to our information, Yatsenyuk, among other active members of the UNA – UNSO in December 1995, was awarded the highest award by Dzhokhar Dudayev for the destruction of Russian troops. Interrogated supporters of Yatsenyuk describe him as an educated person, smart, but cunning and resourceful, they say, from an early age to get power and publicity. ”
According to the SC, “In early 1995, Arseniy Yatsenyuk, with a group of journalists through Georgia, had returned to Ukraine. Later, he was repeatedly seen at conventions and other events UNA-UNSO in Kiev.”
http://fortruss.blogspot.ca/2015/09/hybrid-warrior-yatsenyuk-fought-against.html
Thanks for your post, Uncle Bob 1.
OMG,
next time please think twice before reposting.
The “original” article is not only a blah-blah but indeed not the original source.
Not even mentioning the fake photos on a childish level of counterfeit.
It is embarassing even if it was a joke.
Qui bono?
P.S.: Is anybody interested of the freshly revealed snapshots of Elvis in bed with Hitler? If there is enough demand I can arrange for them to be fabricated soon.
That came from our friends at Fort Russ,as you can see.But besides them, there are several other Russian sites reporting it.Is it a fake,I don’t know ? Hence my “if true” comment.And I doubt you know either.The important part of the story is that the Russian government says they are investigating it.So if that is correct (and I’ve seen no denials on that yet),what are you complaining about.Could Yatsenyuk have been there?Maybe! Was he old enough to fight then ? Yes! Is he from the area of Ukraine that many nazis come from? Yes! Is he a pro-nazi Russophobe ? Yes! So is it possible he did join them ? Maybe !Would we like to find out if its true? I would,it seems maybe you don’t care to know.
Hi Uncle Bob 1,
you didn’t do anything wrong.
Safely ignore him.
See what he wrote last week in /if-you-understand-russian-and-german/#comments at the master on September 06, 2015 · at 8:02 am UTC :
“””””I have also tried the influence on audience with German march songs (3rd Reich, Horst Wessel Lied etc.) and absolutely no effect, what a relief.”””””
Not sure which else experiments he may have tested, maybe marching in a Nazi SS uniform and testing the psycho effects of that on his children?
Seems to have some odd habits, so don’t waste your time.
Thanks Martin,I see also that Scott posted about it in his Ukraine Sitrep.So I guess we aren’t alone in thinking it was worth discussing.
Ideology. As with ISIS or communism, free markets ect ect. I saw it here some time ago in the comment section …
I guess I’ll get bombed for this but there seemed to be an elite group in the comments.
“Negative people need drama like oxygen. Stay positive, it will take their breath away.”
“Life has 2 rules:
# 1 – Never Quit
#2 – Always remember Rule #1.”
What else would ideologues do but knee jerk?
It is a mental straight jacket.
And, of course, add vitriol.
I don’t think it’s really about whether you possess an ideology. In my view, an ideology is like the political version of what in science you might call a theory, although it doesn’t have as much support. That is, it’s a framework of ideas about how the social/political world functions that has explanatory and predictive power, a way of making sense of things. If you are to have any understanding rather than just being surprised by everything that goes on and having no idea how any of it fits together, you have to have one.
People who say they don’t have an ideology generally mean that they have a bunch of mini-ideologies–rules of thumb, various individual ideas, beliefs and understandings they draw on as needed. This may have advantages, but also important disadvantages. Some of these ideas may be held just as dogmatically as any broader ideology, some may contradict each other, the person may not really understand the nature and implications of what they believe, and the total is likely to have less overall explanatory power than a framework of ideas that fit together does.
The problem as I say is not, IMO, with people who actually have an ideology. The problem is with people who imagine they do but don’t actually understand the nature, structure, implications of the ideology they espouse. To argue, such people have to fall back on empty slogans and hostility.
“….the total is likely to have less overall explanatory power than a framework of ideas that fit together does.” – Purple Library Guy
So in your opinion it’s necessary to have an ideology because therefore there is a nice clean linear sequence to ones reasoning. There is on the other hand a mode of thinking that is processed as a philosophy, or a particular method of thinking that is situational and much more fluid. Meaning the context informs the dialogue, and the philosophy of thought organizes this information in a very particular way. The Philosophy of Freedom requires no dogma or ideology, simply truths, or the most attainable facts possible. To make an analogy, if a computer is designed to solve engineering problems is it said to have an ideology? Perhaps someone will want to assign it an ideology such as Engineerism, but in reality the computer is designed to solve problems based on inputs, the context of which (problem) changes the solution.
Ideologies provide cut and dried solutions, whereas practical intelligence applied on a situational basis, in connection with the intuitive human heart (philosophy of freedom) solves problems without resorting to fixed notions. If for example we are asked to solve an issue, the answer will often change based on whose needs are to be met by the solution. Higher level thinking is beyond ideology, and is based on facts and truths, irrespective of their origin or consequences. So in this regard an ideology may encompass certain ideas that are factually relevant, however this does not somehow suggest the ideology as a whole is tactful as a solution, since to be tactful requires an intuitive heart coupled with factual intelligence.
In short, I think ideologies are like signposts, they point to things, but they are static destinations that carry far too much political baggage to evolve fast enough to meet real human needs.
“The Philosophy of Freedom requires no dogma or ideology, simply truths”–
See, this is an example of what I’m talking about. Frankly, I don’t think you understand your ideology. If you say “Freedom!” but you don’t have an account of what kind of society can safeguard that freedom or how such a society can work and continue working, you’re politically useless. Worse yet, most people who say “Freedom!” don’t even have serious ideas about what freedom is! They have a vague notion, but don’t really have an account of freedom from what, freedom to do what, and what ideas about it they do have are very particular to their own situation, so that a “freedom” they could accept would be worthless to a poor person or a rural person (or contrariwise an urban person) or a sick person or so on.
Part of the problem is in the meaning of words, the word ideology has different meanings depending on who uses it. In western society it generally denotes a system of political ideas, which is the usage I am intending. I don’t view a philosophical moral construct in the same way as I do an ideology. So for me there is no ideology for me to understand.
Freedom in this context is to be unbound by the perimeter of an ideology (fixed set of political ideas). Ideas can be implemented in any social context without the need for an overarching ideology, politicians as a rule are bound to fixed policy and hence continual failure. Politicians (for the most part) live lives of pure hypocrisy, they stay on party message in public, and live according to another message in their private lives, since the party ideology is a system of convenience to further their personal ambitions.
Occasionally there arises a very rare statesman, who is not an ideologue, and who based on his or her inner moral code creates a movement, a movement that is independent of ideology, and is based on facts and the rule of law (best practices). In essence, leaders like this, as rare as they are, lead as moral personalities based on the trust others place in them. They do not need ideology although they may adopt pieces of various ideologies to best fit their vision of an improved state.
The argument then arises that at some point this rare leaders set of ideas, however they were formed and implemented, solidifies into a political ideology. But to suggest this is to again fall into complacency, for times change, and so to do the requirements of life, and thus another great statesman comes along and creates another hybrid ideology. The point being that accepting a given political ideology as a completed construct is for those who lack the intellect and inner morality to envision a more refined version, or a version that better suits the time.
If you think political solutions are to be found in the realm of ideology than you’ll fit right into the political status quo. To me political ideologies are an anachronism. I fully understand the need for social stability, that is where moral law comes into play, but political systems are for consumption by the masses, true leaders create their own path based on something intangible that comes from within, which draws upon an objective truth, uncolored by the accepted political norm.
“Higher level thinking is beyond ideology, and is based on facts and truths”
How do we know what we know? What establishes something as a fact or a truth?
Cheers,
RR
Instead of using the touchy word ideology, maybe we can invoke a phrase such as cognitive coherence, integrity, or consistency — as in a closed system (meaning closure as in math).
Note cartoon at http://cafehayek.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/miracle_cartoon.jpg
One example of a miracle is the ‘invisible hand’ which one the recent Crosstalk people mentioned regarding the invasion of Middle East countries where once it was destroyed was supposed to spontaneously regenerate by the invisible hand of market forces.
The closure in math and science is not the closed mind sort, but internal consistency with ambiguity and ‘miracles’ minimized, so that those things which don’t fit are either not addressed, such as square roots of negative numbers with the real numbers set, or referred to the math and axioms dealing with complex numbers.
Political ideology or religious dogma are systems where it’s important to notice where the axioms break down so that either the inconsistencies are held aside or the realization that a broader and different paradigm is needed — which introduces new problems of completeness. Use a system for that which it is designed and able to handle, but don’t think it is a reliable model for the entire reality. This is not introducing ‘miracles’ however — just sound cybernetics, philosophy, and coherent cognitive integrity.
Invisible hand? who and santa claus and the easter bunny to. Actually, the Invisible hand is social surplus or profit of the entire system at the macro level…You do not know what you are talking about and neither does the school of thought that you hail from.
RR
Actually, I do know what I’m talking about. Perhaps you misread or misunderstood my post — looks like it to me.
I do not hail from a school who believes in an invisible hand — hence I called it a ‘miracle’, as per the cartoon. But that is used as a justification for invading and destroying countries and opening them up for speculative, capitalist vultures. The invisible hand is also used to justify predatory markets which redistribute wealth from the working class to wealthy, as a form of religious dogma.
Dear Saker, thanks for courage to forge ahead with your ideal even though you feel you walk alone.
You added the disclaimer in your foreword, you are being gracious in your attempts to remain open, if others have a problem this is due to their own projection. You are acting as a mirror, and some people hate what they see.
The truly open minded are a rare breed, most have far too much invested in one particular ideology, concept, or idea to allow any revisions. This is the sad state of humanity, we have forgotten to be as children, our thinking has become rigid, harsh and even senile. The ability to think, to reason from facts without getting emotionally attached is extremely difficult to obtain. Politics itself is an outcrop of this emotional positioning. How many topics can garner such animosity as politics? Politics and the ideologies which make up the political landscape are emotional vortexes that people affiliate and identify with, to such an extent they believe the idea to be a part of themselves.
I myself question the validity of social welfare as it currently exists, that so many have been hoodwinked by its premise I think is indicative of a larger movement away from human self responsibility. In the last thread I posted the following:
I believe that humans left to their own, without too much hindrance from government get along just fine, where the idea came from that we need to be taken care of is beyond me. Poverty in most cases is the imposition of a way of life that is unnatural, destitution exists only when humans no longer have a place. Were the aboriginal peoples prior to the imposition of the Europeans and Catholic Church living in poverty? Maybe they needed to be told they lived in poverty, but I suspect they had no idea.
The notion of what constitutes poverty is cultural, however with the spreading of the empire of homogeneity everyone now wants the same things, and this gives rise to poverty as we now know it. Farmers are displaced, resources are polluted, hunter gatherers cannot subsist and fisheries are depleted. Empire has changed the landscape, and so to keep the masses within the hallucination which is empire they are kept fed, and in most cases medicated.
I understand the concept of not letting other humans suffer, but the system as it now stands is monolithic, its bureaucratic, its not really people helping people, but an administrative set-up that funnels money from one place to another. There are cases of people helping people, such as churches, community groups, co-ops, etc, but these make up only a fraction of the social welfare landscape. The bulk of the assistance comes from illegally siphoned labor tax, which in all too many cases goes to recipients who have no intention of working, and may never work or accomplish anything of value in their entire lives. This is the foundation of the empire of apathy. A lethargic, fed and medicated population, confused into consumption, kept on support by a growing minority of working class people who struggle under the burden of ever higher taxes.
The current system may appear humane, and even just, but it is not. It is coercive, illegal, and morally bankrupt. Human beings if allowed to manage their own lives, with minimal oversight (beyond the protection of the commons) would create support groups, wherein human interaction would be the cornerstone, rather than some EBT payment card that is remote and unproductive.
The biggest problem is human thinking, the collective hallucination of being state dependent, of being helpless and needing a big brother to guard us. I hear the overtones of this thought process, its an unnatural state of affairs for humans to be so enamored of their comfort that they give everything away to gain what appears to be safety. Of course we don’t want war zones, or famine, and these things can be brought to heel, but it is this very system of empire, of apathy, of something for nothing that causes the destruction around us, yet so few recognize it.
What Chavez attempted to do was alleviate poverty as he saw it, what he failed to do was create self sufficiency. Where are the public works? The role of government is to create and maintain basic common infrastructure. Why was that not done? Instead money was funneled from one place to another, a shell game of sorts, but nothing was CREATED to truly help end poverty. His was a populist dream that ends in tears, because he cared, but he transferred too much, and created too little.
I’m sure he made mistakes,certainly.But its important to remember that there was so much to do,and so little time to do it in those days.He had 2 centuries of wrong to undue.People needed improvements to their horrible lives in the present as well as the future.Chavez wasn’t a god,and couldn’t work miracles.Every step he took was a battle with entrenched elements battling him.If he was a “dictator” he might have gotten more done.But he wanted his “revolution” to be a democratic one.And we see how 5th column elements were able to use “democracy” to actually destroy democracy in Ukraine.And how they are working for “democracy” trying to equally destroy Russia.Well in Venezuela tied even more to the Empire their power to do harm was even much greater.So yes,Chavez should in a perfect World,have been able to do more.If he had a elite that was loyal to Venezuela.And if he wasn’t under attack 24/7 by the Empire and his 5th column enemies.But he was under that attack,and not living in that perfect World.So at least he improved the lives of millions of his citizens that had nothing but hope for a better life.Too little certainly.But more than Venezuelan Presidents in two centuries had been able to do,or even tried to do.
He did try, and he was under duress, he was also very charismatic. Most people who met him felt his warmth from all accounts I’ve come across. For me the issue was not the man, but the method, I think he adopted the wrong ideas, he was working with a flawed premise. Even if he was in power for another 20 years his policies were bankrupting his own source of funds, the oil sector. He was a radical idealist who had plans of imposing goodness on the masses, when the truth is that human beings need freedom to thrive, not centralized control, regardless of how well meaning it is.
That would depend on your definition of “freedom”. Venezuela has had 200 years of capitalist style “freedom”,and over 50 years of “Western” style “democratic” freedom.And nothing was done to help the people of Venezuela.The oligarchs and the Empire used those very concepts of “freedom” to enslave the nation to the wealthy classes and the “colossus of the North”.Venezuela needs much less of that type of “freedom” and far more of a social conscience based “freedom”.
Venezuela had freedom? Venezuela has been a resource colony. Yes I understand the word ‘freedom’ has been co-opted, so I mean it in a literal sense. Free from taxation, free from coercion into government programs, free from forced medical care, free from false representation, etc. At this point the freedom I describe is an ideal, and exists only in the human heart. We are living under Caesar, not much has changed since the time of Christ’s arrival except for the knowledge of the kingdom of God, which will produce the fruit of freedom in time.
Until the end of your comment I was starting to worry about you.But as you say,there is no freedom in the way you meant (and never will be totally).The World, under whatever system is adopted will never have that degree of freedom.In actuality to get that you’d have to live in the woods ,or on a deserted island somewhere.And people won’t do that.The “creature comforts” of modern society trump that freedom for almost everyone.
Angelo on September 09, 2015 · at 5:50 pm UTC said:
“not much has changed since the time of Christ’s arrival except for the knowledge of the kingdom of God, which will produce the fruit of freedom in time.”
Did you actually see Christ in this life (or your last)?
Can you prove Christ is not just an equivalent of the Sun God you describe the priests of Çatalhöyük possibly worshipping?
Hmm… let’s see…can you prove the Jews are the” chosen people”?
Can you prove the mythical kingdom of Israel was real?
Just askin….
Carmel by the Sea
Carmel by the Sea said:
… let’s see…can you prove the Jews are the” chosen people”?
Nope – and neither would I wish to try.
Carmel by the Sea said:
Can you prove the mythical kingdom of Israel was real?
Just askin….
Hmm…let’s see. If I was interested enough to convince myself (more than I am already sure that grass is green) I may try to read some more about it then go visit some relics in a museum. I could probably form further opinion based on that and most people in the world would likely do the same (not that this matters to the small number who will never believe it was).
Now, maybe one third of the world’s population believe that Jesus actually existed (based on much less evidence than probably exists for the mythical kingdom you refer to) – but that doesn’t matter to the 33% (or the much smaller number that allegedly finally get through the eye of a needle into his truly, in my opinion, mythical kingdom).
However, none of this matters to me – for even if he did/does exist I consider this particular deity as a cad in any case /controversy-is-good-if-it-makes-you-think/comment-page-1/#comment-113193
Just sayin…
@Angelo
You took the words right out of my mouth
As for the lynch mob sending hate mail : Even a child can see that Venezuela is being mismanaged economically. If they can’t handle one man’s personal story about his life in Venezuela, then they need go away. Perhaps set up their own echo chamber.
Did you still live in the days of Yugoslavia?
It rather sounds like, no, you are too young or not from Serbia.
I assure you I am 100% Serbian. I had a front seat during the break up of Jugoslavia. I am not a “Jugo- nostalgic” and I’m not a socialist.
Ok, that’s fine then and I respect your views, because everybody shall have her/his say.
“I believe that humans left to their own, without too much hindrance from government get along just fine, where the idea came from that we need to be taken care of is beyond me. ”
There are systems which take care of people. If their house or car is damaged, or if they lose their jobs, or need medical care, or get too old or sick to work, they get a handout.
There are two kinds of these systems: one is insurance from private companies where much of the money is grabbed by the owners of the insurance companies, and the other is a government system which collects money from the people but does it on a non-profit basis.
This is for people who think they can get along fine without help from others (but don’t want to live on a desert island or in the wilderness all on their own like a solitary wild animal).
“Human beings if allowed to manage their own lives, with minimal oversight (beyond the protection of the commons) would create support groups,”
They have done that — there have been many such groups — but they were mostly taken over by the corporations so they were no longer functions of the government (such as towns, local communities, and various other groups, some large, government or not) and privatized or corporatized.
This is why it’s named Social Security Insurance, and Unemployment Insurance — it’s government run insurance.
And while I’m at it I’ll mention that the public school system was supposed to work that way too, although many elementary and high schools are now also being privatized, as well as public colleges and universities — again so a few people can make profits off it.
So what’s the deal — you don’t like insurance where people band together to socialize risks and expenses unless it’s privatized so some rich people get to skim off it?
I don’t like what? Why do people insist on putting words in others mouths? It’s an infantile means of communication that belies a total lack of focus and attention.
Social insurance is a form of taxation, it is theft. Insurance companies are part and parcel of the government complex as well, we are forced to use them, but they have basically a monopoly to print money with little to no oversight. Neither system works.
Do you like being taxed to death blue? Tax on income, tax on bills, tax on goods, tax on fees, fees on top of fees (hidden taxes). This is the theft of human capital, of human productivity. If we were left alone, allowed to keep the fruits of our labor, whatever that may consist of, than we would not need social security, we could have the house paid for, a nest egg, even some investments. Over the entire life of the average American 60% of income is stolen by taxes and fees, if allowed to keep that money don’t you think retirement, or health care costs would become a little easier?
Health care itself is another boondoggle of titanic proportions, but that’s a whole other debate, the costs associated with that government mandated industry are the highest on the world. A pill that costs .02 in Mexico costs $1.80 in the U.S.
Perhaps if the government was serious about people and their long term well being it would provide proper bookkeeping classes to students. Most kids out of high school don’t even know how to write a check, let alone balance a budget.
So to your question/remark – I don’t like either.
The human are a social animal and do not survive well in isolation — not even right libertarians. If left alone most people would not survive.
People depend on society and the government all the time, especially the infrastructure, but in various other ways too, such as laws and regulation to retard the oligarchy from totally ripping you off and enslaving you (until recently, anyway).
Taxation has been rigged to favor the rich, or course, as has the laws, but taxes, or the people’s produced wealth in some way, is what pays for infrastructure. (Insurance companies don’t print money, BTW — not even endogenous money. And also BTW, most politicans can’t balance a budget either.)
Complain about the cost of medicine? That’s not government but private industry — and whatever government they buy or bribe. The ones behind stealing a person’s productivity and exploiting them is not government but plutocracy and corporate capitalists; the government gets involved in it only as paid servants of the “1%”.
I’m afraid your libertarian ideas are much too simplistic and unrealistic. But you do have the option of leaving society, going into the wilderness, and living off the land if you think you can manage it. Other people have the right to:
“That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.”
http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/declaration_transcript.html
“The human are a social animal and do not survive well in isolation — not even right libertarians. If left alone most people would not survive.” – Blue
Who said anything about isolation? Do you even read what I write? I think you get so emotionally worked up that you just start spouting.
Humans as a rule form communities, that is not a revelation, they will form communities with even stronger bonds without government interventions.
Income taxes are not rigged, they are illegal. I appreciate that you think labor tax is necessary, since most do presume this to be the case, however it is far from the truth. You also imply that taxes pay for those services the government provides, however for this to be true we need to divide up what taxes you are referring to. If you mean that income tax pays for infrastructure and services I would like to correct your misconception. The Grace Commission released under Ronald Reagan stated the following in its meeting of January 15th, 1984:
“-One-third of all their taxes is consumed by waste and inefficiency in the Federal Government as we identified in our survey.
-Another one-third of all their taxes escapes collection from others as the underground economy blossoms in direct proportion to tax increases and places even more pressure on law abiding taxpayers, promoting still more underground economy.
-With two-thirds of everyone’s personal income taxes wasted or not collected, 100 percent of what is collected is absorbed solely by interest on the Federal debt and by Federal Government contributions to transfer payments. In other words, all individual income tax revenues are gone before one nickel is spent on the services which taxpayers expect from their Government.” (End)
All your income taxes pay is the governments debt to the bankers, isn’t that just peachy? Especially considering the government COULD issue money debt free but chooses not to. This is the case with almost every country on earth, this is no isolated case of U.S. only.
I ALSO stated previously that the role of government is the protection of the commons, yet you seem to assume (ass-u-me) that I propose no government at all. Why is that? Because I think labor tax is illegal? Is that how your logic works?
Government can raise money through transactional taxes (its how Paypal makes billions a year), through tariffs that should be in place to protect domestic industry and commerce, and by lending to credit worthy business and industry for a modest rate of return, as well as pay per use facilities and tolls. It would help immensely as well if government would simply start coining its own money without a private third party monopoly.
“I’m afraid your libertarian ideas are much too simplistic and unrealistic. But you do have the option of leaving society…” – Blue
So my ideas are libertarian! I did not know what label was best fitted, you are good at this labelling game! You place ism’s like a champ :) I presumed the ideas just made sense and were a logical extension of good policy and economic theory.
You obviously have some preconceived ideas of what I think — which should be dispelled if you read what else I’ve written about economics and taxes.
I said “but taxes, or the people’s produced wealth in some way, is what pays for infrastructure.” — wealth does not magically appear regardless of whose wealth is used by the government and roads don’t lay themselves, and schools don’t build themselves, so someone must pay for them regardless of monetary policies.
No, income taxes are not illegal — that’s a libertarian myth. It may be dumb and unfair to tax income from the working class, but it’s not illegal.
You go on about things you apparently know little or nothing about. You are being very argumentative and evasive, and I have no interest in pursuing this with you. I’m finding it impossible to hold a reasoned discussion with you.
“I’m finding it impossible to hold a reasoned discussion with you.” – Blue
That’s a laugh, really. You need obedience for a proper discussion, subservience to the high horse. The nature of my replies is in proportion to your arrogance, and from whence it comes I haven’t the faintest either. You keep claiming your superiority but bring absolutely nothing of substance.
I pay my income tax because I am compelled by force, it’s a ‘voluntary’ system that is enforced by jail time. I am a tax slave to the government which spends money doing things I disagree with. I understand that you seem to recognize this system as legitimate, which is entirely your right, but that does not change the nature of the beast.
You may have already seen the documentary ‘From Freedom to Fascism’, and perhaps you simply don’t agree with its position, which would not surprise me in the least. However, if you have not seen it, do check it out, its pretty enlightening.
I provided you with a document called the Grace Commission, what is evasive about that? I’m dealing with your points of contention one by one.
I must say, your a real hoot! If you don’t like being contested please do take your leave from our little discussion. I’m a lost cause anyway….
Y0u make *** up or repeat it from invalid sources — http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/jsiegel/Personal/taxes/IncomeTax.htm — like saying the income tax is illegal, and then change the subject.
I posted an illustration of how species do not change from one to another and you pick up on completely the wrong point of the analogy, and throw in another fallacy.
*****
Have a nice day.
Angelo,
if you have a good idea, do you like being a billionaire…while others starve?
Why would others have to starve?
If I were a billionaire I would increase business to employ people, I would fund technology initiatives, I would promote sustainable agriculture, among other things….
Angelo,
in the time taken to gather your 1st billion, tens of thousands or millions would have starved to death (tens of thousands starve every day).
If you do become a billionaire then you are a psychopath.
The billionaire is symptomatic of what is absolutely wrong in society. All but a small incentive should be taxed from the this billionaire. In that way he would never become one. In that way he would never become powerful – the dictatorship of the oligarchs would be a thing of the past.
Your egotistic dream (even though you may describe it as the opposite) is the reason why the human species deserves to end.
You can keep your “trickle down effect” – i’ve already had enough Margaret Thatcher / Reagan to last many lifetimes…
actually in a society where there were no government handouts to the elite, there wouldn’t be billionaires…
“The problem is like the Pilsbury dough boy..if you squeeze him in one place he bulges in another”… (CAF)
Money is like the circulation of an organism…it shouldn’t stagnate but keep flowing.
Now its stagnating with land ownership and hoarding overseas etc etc…
I agree with Angelo, that people without too much government can do ok…but I think that in case of health care and ownership of resources like electricity, it could be government owned because business is for profit…and gov should represent people..not oligarch.
Another thought – compulsory ‘gifting’ like taxes, but to organizations that are for public benefits….arts schools etc.And laws to prevent charities from getting too big…
Anonymous, it was a hypothetical situation, to become a billionaire does not mean one has billions in the bank account, it could easily mean one owns several industries/companies and the total combined assets are a billion or more. This billionaire could easily employ 50,000 people, yet in your contorted construct of moral certitude about money and psychopathy, you only see the glass half empty.
What is the ideal then, a communist utopia where ones ability to create is limited by the perimeter created by a bureaucratic class? If one has the energy to innovate and create work for others I see nothing wrong with that. What needs to happen via education is that philanthropy become a core part of the business dialogue, like it becomes expected that industrialists invest back into their communities as a rule, building schools for their employees children, funding arts programs as Ann suggested, and so on.
I also don’t agree the human being deserves to ‘end’. Its appears you’ve been overwhelmed by pessimism, and are pretty quick to throw around terms like psychopath.
As to Reagan and Thatcher, and the ‘trickle down effect’, you can’t make that one stick either, despite how badly others just NEED to impose labels on others I have never supported their breed of capitalism. I already mentioned tariffs and personal freedom, Reagan reduced tariffs, opening the U.S. to cheaply produced goods that initiated a race to the bottom wage chase, where global industry went wherever they could get the lowest cost. This has fueled poverty and worker exploitation everywhere.
It was also Reagan that created the war on drugs hysteria that has not only created a vast multi billion dollar global drug trade, but has led to the incarceration of millions of U.S. minorities (primarily). This government overreach is the exact opposite of personal freedom. Drug issues are a social and medical issue, not a criminal issue.
Angelo on September 10, 2015 · at 3:29 pm UTC said:
“This billionaire could easily employ 50,000 people.”
The individual you describe could as easily destroy these jobs and ship them to a “low cost” location with result that he becomes a multi-billionaire. Such concentration of wealth & it’s attendant power/decision making is wrong.
Angelo said:
“What is the ideal then, a communist utopia where ones ability to create is limited by the perimeter created by a bureaucratic class?”
Creativity is natural, generally interesting but has both good and bad effects. It pales in significance compared to fairness and happiness. These guys seemed to get on ok for a while https://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Uploads/129/Media/First_City_Peaceful_Anarchy.pdf.
Interestingly, it seems they may also have solved the massive inequality and associated problems caused by bloodline inheritance http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=14857
“…The team has also made important discoveries about social structure through burials at the site. “We have also seen that people who were buried under houses were not biologically relatives or members of the same family. They lived as a family but their natural parents are not the same. Those who were born in Çatalhöyük did not live with their biological parents but with others,”
Angelo said:
“If one has the energy to innovate and create work for others I see nothing wrong with that.”
In many circumstances, neither do I so – long as ones financial benefit and associated capacity to wield power is extremely limited in comparison to others.
Angelo said:
“What needs to happen via education is that philanthropy become a core part of the business dialogue, like it becomes expected that industrialists invest back into their communities as a rule, building schools for their employees children, funding arts programs as Ann suggested, and so on.”
Phiantrophy makes me sick – please read “The Philanthropy of George Soros: Building Open Societies” to find out why.
Angelo said:
“I also don’t agree the human being deserves to ‘end’. Its appears you’ve been overwhelmed by pessimism, and are pretty quick to throw around terms like psychopath.”
I’m a happy chap but my empathy allows me to think that the end of humanity is best – here’s an update /a-scream-of-total-disappointment-saker-rant/comment-page-1/#comment-144626.
This guy http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffbercovici/2011/06/14/why-some-psychopaths-make-great-ceos/ “…woudn’t say every Fortune 500 chief is a psychopath.”
Angelo said:
“As to Reagan and Thatcher, and the ‘trickle down effect’, you can’t make that one stick either, despite how badly others just NEED to impose labels on others I have never supported their breed of capitalism. I already mentioned tariffs and personal freedom, Reagan reduced tariffs, opening the U.S. to cheaply produced goods that initiated a race to the bottom wage chase, where global industry went wherever they could get the lowest cost. This has fueled poverty and worker exploitation everywhere.”
Please refer to my prior comments.
“The individual you describe could as easily destroy these jobs and ship them to a “low cost” location with result that he becomes a multi-billionaire. Such concentration of wealth & it’s attendant power/decision making is wrong.” – Anonymous
The concentration of power occurs naturally, in a classroom of 40 kids there will usually only be one or two leaders, the rest will invariably follow along. That is human nature. In the same vein not everyone is motivated to create industry, or business, and those that do should not be looked upon as evil. If they have done something wrong in the course of business than that is a matter of the law. If the government is going to manage the commons then they can protect labor by making domestic sale-able goods domestically produced, penalizing companies for off-shoring by imposing tariffs.
“Creativity is natural, generally interesting but has both good and bad effects. It pales in significance compared to fairness and happiness” – Anonymous
Sorry but I could not agree less, to me a world without creativity is both unfair and unhappy.
“These guys seemed to get on ok for a while https://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Uploads/129/Media/First_City_Peaceful_Anarchy.pdf.” – Anonymous
I read the whole paper, and the objective stance is non-existent, the paper was basically a fluff piece for some form of socio-anarchism. This paper speaks to the very issue of poor logic, the author leaps from one conclusion to another based on the physical characteristics of the village, providing details of daily life when non exist. This is typical of many research papers these days, motivated by an agenda thus affecting the objective nature of what should merely be physical facts.
The basis of the conclusion that the people lived in an Anarchy with no leaders and no religious leadership or priesthood was the fairly equivalent size of the dwellings and storage containers, and lack of public spaces or temples. That’s it. They are also claimed to be peaceful because none of their existing artwork depicted scenes of war, besides the animal skulls and depictions of angry wild boars. The author depicts them as humanitarian because they found some bodies buried together, and other bodies buried adorned with necklaces and anklets. That sums up the evidence, and I read it all. The rest is the average archaeology; they made jewelry, pottery, grew domesticated grains, raised animals, had trading routes and so on.
The authors assumptions and fictional portrayal is absurd, it would be best if the paper simply stated the facts, provided images of the relics and said we know very little about their culture other than that they made these….ate this….and lived in dwellings such as these….
For all we know a kilometer from the site was a temple to the Sun God where the priests lived separated from the people in extreme opulence, or that these were dwellings of artisans that were little more than pottery and jewelry factories for the neighboring kingdom of Ud.
Beyond the physical evidence the rest of the ‘analysis’ is fluff, conjecture, and fiction.
“Phiantrophy makes me sick – please read “The Philanthropy of George Soros: Building Open Societies” to find out why.” – Anonymous
Talk about throwing the baby out with the bath water! Because of George Soros philanthropy make you sick? I know of many very beneficial philanthropies, no strings attached and very helpful organizations. My friend runs one, he builds schools in Cambodia and provides funding for their textbooks and school supplies.
“http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffbercovici/2011/06/14/why-some-psychopaths-make-great-ceos/ “…woudn’t say every Fortune 500 chief is a psychopath.”” – Anonymous
Don’t confuse CEO’s with industrialists, and entrepreneurs, CEO’s in general don’t build anything, they are usually brought in to streamline, increase profits and provide shareholder returns after the founder has long since left. These are ivory league elite for the most part and have been bred to maximize profits, all their education is oriented to one goal, and that is to be cut throat money men. That is not to say that there are not some good CEO’s, but they are a much different breed than a true company builder.
The problem with modern day corporations is that when they break the law, they are given penalties that make the infraction well worth it (cost of doing business), and allowed to carry on as usual. The government has the legitimate right to revoke the corporate charter of these corporations but has refused to do so in the United States for 100 years. If there is a problem with corporate malfeasance and a lack of law enforcement, look no further than the government regulators.
Angelo on September 11, 2015 · at 2:54 am UTC said:
“The concentration of power occurs naturally, in a classroom of 40 kids there will usually only be one or two leaders, the rest will invariably follow along.”
Of note: the link between creativity and leadership is, probably, weak or non-existent
The egotistic variation between individuals (whether by nature/nurture, see here for that discussion /a-scream-of-total-disappointment-saker-rant/comment-page-1/#comment-144598) invariably leads to the breakdown of even those societies which may have been, in my opinion, approaching the “ideal” you had seemed to be seeking my comment on (please remember I said that they “seemed” to get on – I didn’t say that they “did” – in a similar way you cannot prove to me that you had a prior existence I cannot prove to you the idealism of Çatalhöyük).
Angelo said:
“That is human nature.”
and, in my opinion, the reason the species does not deserve to exist or if we were created to have ever been created.
Angelo said:
“In the same vein not everyone is motivated to create industry, or business, and those that do should not be looked upon as evil.”
I have already said that creativity is generally interesting and can be good (e.g. healthcare discoveries) and bad (arms development). That is not the main issue.
Of central importance is the a set of circumstances where Bill Gates (as an e.g. if that’s ok?) individually has so little empathy that as he passes his x millionth Windows sale he has practically no thought of the dire circumstances of countless millions/billions of his fellow creatures. Further, he either has no thought of the organsiation of the society he lives in to allow such circumstances to exist but, more likely, actively supports the creation of the societal structures and laws which support his own egotism.
In my opinion the organisation of society to allow these circumstances is wrong. Even if Bill Gates were a simple “Entreprenneur” who was motivated by creativity (low ego) and did not realise the exponential growth of his asset base it should be the work of a fair society to ensure this new asset base provides betterment for all.
Angelo said:
“If they have done something wrong in the course of business than that is a matter of the law.”/
because of the natural human behaviour you refer to, the law has already been skewed in favour of the entreprenneur/ceo/Inc/PLC/…
Angelo said:
“If the government is going to manage the commons”
Yuk – I never bow.
Angelo said:
“then they can protect labor by making domestic sale-able goods domestically produced, penalizing companies for off-shoring by imposing tariffs.
So now you, ensconsed as an entreprenneurial billionaire decide you will lobby the paid hands (the politicians) to tweak some parochial local trade laws to protect your “commons”. In so doing you sacrifice the world-wide pool of talent to enhance the creativity you once conceived and, at an earlier time, held so dear. Very noble – not that you care about all the other non-employee citizens of your parochial backwater who must continue to pay you inflated prices for a poor quality item which has now suffered lack of innovation for years.
Angelo said:
“Sorry but I could not agree less, to me a world without creativity is both unfair and unhappy.”
Am, where did I say I wished for a world without creativity?
Angelo said:
“For all we know a kilometer from the site was a temple to the Sun God where the priests lived separated from the people in extreme opulence”
Absolutely agree, I only said they “seemed” to get on – you initially seemed to be in a quest for an “ideal”.
Angelo said:
“I know of many very beneficial philanthropies, no strings attached and very helpful organizations. My friend runs one, he builds schools in Cambodia and provides funding for their textbooks and school supplies.”
A world in which some think the existence of Philantrophy is good diverts from the root cause issue. Philantropy is a symptom of the real problem. It is not a cure.
Angelo said:
“Don’t confuse CEO’s with industrialists, and entrepreneurs”
I haven’t. See earlier. Since I don’t think there are any naive billionaire’s I do think they are all psyochpaths.
Angelo said:
“If there is a problem with corporate malfeasance and a lack of law enforcement, look no further than the government “
Corporations control the government – or why do you think the infraction would be well worth it?
There are actually some public works. Chavez expanded subways, created cable cars up to the barrios in the Caracas hills, built rail lines and bridges, hospitals, universities, various kinds of agricultural infrastructure. At the micro level, one thing that the communal councils have been able to do is put in place a lot of low-level infrastructure, the kind of maintenance, repair and improvement that make places more liveable and functional. There is also a network of places with computers and free internet, helping bridge the digital divide.
So I’m not convinced that criticism is very strong, especially given the terrible record on public works of the previous governments.
Hey Purple Library Guy, of course there were some public works, but his per-capita spending on infrastructure was actually lower than the previous two governments, which seems unlikely but is true. He could have done much more, but most of the money flowed into social assistance programs rather than creating the infrastructure for long term employment. It was a tricky prospect no doubt, he wished to alleviate suffering as soon as possible, and put the money into that cause, but he failed to reinvest into the one industry that provided him 90% of his income, the oil sector, which is now in shambles.
He had a big heart, but he he had too much animosity for industry in my opinion, he failed to see that domestic industry needed reinvestment, he nationalized but then reduced funding, yet imposed wage and price controls, the death cross for business. There seems to be a strong current of anti-business sentiment on this blog comment section, however without trade there is no work, the government cannot create everything.
hi saker,
…sometimes it s good to listen to ‘good old AL GREEN’ …..A Change Is Gonna Come !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Nua5klb4Os
…and just don t forget:
You are the SAKER …and I’m the RAINBOW SERPENT – and there are Millions and millions more of strong,vibrating,caring human souls out there – being humble but standing strong defending,living and protecting our highest common values together .
YOU ARE NOT ALONE…..and yes , the tide is indeed turning – we gonna chant down babylon.
So, let’s keep the faith – and let’s remember :
where there is HEALING , there is always some kind of pain,dirt,blood and purulence..( it s the same in birthing )…so when we see so much pain and ‘purulence’ coming up in the comment-reactions to your post – that means , a lot of healing is taking place….meaning you are doing a very good job !!!!!!….. it s like the working of a Shaman……just do NOT identify too much with the reactions…let them go through….coz you are not responsible for what the others are doing….you are offering more than enough ( doing a brilliant job !!)
blessings
stefan TasUrInChi
Right on Stefan, couldn’t agree more.
Espina
I dont think you should take it to heart, Saker. I think you are an emotional caring person like many of us, and understandably unreasonable criticism/accusations hurt. But the whole point of a blog must be to “provoke” emotion and discussion?
I read the Venezuela piece and to me it seemed very narrow minded by the author. The policies and politics of Hugo Chavez was in my opinion a step in the right direction. It was not perfect and the people who probably had a negative impact was the upper and upper-middle class. I believe from what the author wrote, he belongs in the last segment.
In any political movement the participants do not always move in tandem (in lockstep). While Chavez had ideas he expressed, it might not have been executed as it was meant to be. Parts of a political organization can be corrupt and deceitful and hurt he overal intention of the movement. Let us also not forget that taking on the USA as an adversary politicaly will often lead to payback. And I fully believe that the USA actively sabotaged and still sabotage the Venezuelan economy, political and social structure as much as they can through subterfuge and subversion.
I applaud Chavez for his bravery and his intention. I wish more people and particularly politicians would understand the true US World Order and stand up against the bullying and exploitation.
Keep up the good work and dont be discouraged.
Norwegian Bob
Please carry on, dear Saker. You are intellectually on the right path and are doing a marvellous job !
Also there are paid psychops. If there is a personal attack dismiss it immediately.
Yes Saker I also wish you to continue to publish articles whether you agree with them or not.
My posting is in no way a personal criticism of you. However this author Catire opened himself up for criticism with his one sided biased view from the point of those elitists who face blowback, and perhaps not from their own doing but from their inherited perches. He is not alone. Many of the expatriates from Venezuela share his views. Same as the Cuban expatriates have shared for over a generation.
As far as the shortage of goods in Venezuela….have not seen any posts about this, but remember reading [can’t find it now] that it is a “manufactured” shortage meant to destabilize the govt. The oligarchs in Venezuela and abroad have been hoarding goods to force prices upwards. If anyone has information about this would love to see it.
Here is my post from yesterday’s article which I posted rather late but hoping that some of the readers may find the Links valuable:
Thanks to Martin from SEB, Bob and DLG, elsi and others
who have clearly identified Catire for what he is. Just another
elitist afraid of losing his privileged perch. A mirror image of
the Cubans in Florida. Many of the plantation owners in
Venezuela, prior to Chavez migrated to Venezuela from Cuba.
Elsi I have saved your links for translation [later] but very
grateful.
The below documentary has been seriously obfuscated by
Google which primarily brings up scores of Links to a song
instead of the magnificent documentary by that name:
The Revolution Will Not Be Televised – Chavez: Inside the
Coup
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id–ZFtjR5c
Uploaded on Nov 5, 2009
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Revo…
2002 documentary about the April 2002 Venezuelan coup
attempt which briefly deposed Venezuelan President Hugo
Chávez. A television crew from Ireland’s national broadcaster,
RTÉ happened to be recording a documentary about Chávez
during the events of April 11, 2002. Shifting focus, they
followed the events as they occurred. During their filming, the
crew recorded images of the events that they say contradict
explanations given by Chávez’s opposition, the private media,
the US State Department, and then White House Press
Secretary Ari Fleischer. The documentary says that the coup
was the result of a conspiracy between various old guard and
anti-Chávez factions within Venezuela and the United States.
John Pilger’s documentary: The War on Democracy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeHzc1h8k7o
I highly recommend Eva Gollinger’s Blog: Postcards From the
Revolution
http://www.chavezcode.com/
Another excellent source for truthseekers:
http://venezuelanalysis.com/
Let us hope and pray that the AngloZionist do not succeed in
their plans for Venezuela, all of Latin America, Ukraine, AND
Russia, Serbia, Syria, all of Middle East Europe AND
China….
Love to all
Christine
:
The Saker please for many of us without the education or skill with words you are recognized as a voice of sanity in the wilderness and a treasure for the poor to find. As for myself I believe I can detect your sincerity and without being able to contribute to much to the conversion by very erudite posters due to my ignorance please continue as you are. Agendas and viewpoints come and go; but I value your rants as one who really cares and look to your site every day.
Keep up the work Saker. I couldn’t do one percent of what you are doing, out of laziness but also because the negative comments would get at me. So I can only try to understand what you are going through.
There will always be these kind of answers whenever you present varying point of views. The cause is actually simple, even understandable. Everybody, including you and me, need or crave for simple, unmitigated truths to adhere to. Intellectually we can toy with quite complex ideas, but every man and woman wants to have at least a set of core beliefs to which he can cling to without ever having to question them.
It’s just in our nature. It requires continuous work on oneself to be able to carefully review even these core beliefs, and even entertain the notion they may be partially, or totally wrong. It’s painful, also.
The article about Venezuela did a symbolic damage, also here perfectly understandable. I can relate to it. I was and still am a big fan of Chavez. I wanted to believe that Venezuela was a kind of “shining beacon” proposing an alternative path of development. The thing is that I, and many others, invested too much in this. So that whenever we see a hint that something might not be totally paradisiac out there, many of us go crazy.
Growing older, I have (I hope) learned to accept the notion that there is, and cannot be, paradise on earth, anywhere. Venezuela is not perfect. Russia is far from perfect. Nothing is, actually.
The downside to this is that, for propaganda purposes, we need a clear message. People who are thoughtful and self-reflective tend to lose the impetus for action.
Hey Saker!
I do not understand your problem! I read the disclaimer, the article and some of the comments.
All good and fine. Maybe you got some other unpleasant stuff which was not posted by this blog.
So what! You could get used to this.
The whole idea to post that article was great. We could see what kind of people complain about the Venezuelan situation. For myself it was a pleasant discovery.
Just continue to do and post similar articles.
I do not comment too often, but this time I had to :-)
Robo_IC
“I will continue to raise difficult and even painful topics even when they directly affect a member of the worldwide Resistance to Empire.”
You know — this is like trying to respond to an article by someone arguing that the world was created in 7 days 5,000 years ago, or that god anointed and appointed the kings to rule the country, or that the planets and stars rule the actions of the human race, or that Saddam has WMDs and kicked the inspectors out and had to be overthrown.
It’s ‘Oh, no. — not again and still, and do we have to go all through this all over again?”
You feel discouraged? I’ve been trying to get people to understand what socialism and anarchism and actual participatory democracy — and capitalism and imperialism — are really about for years and years, and it always ends up with some people not understanding the basic stuff, not following and reading links or doing some research on their own, and the temptation to explain it all — which requires writing a book or two or conducting a 3 semester course in basic management, and system thinking and organization. And I’m too weary to go through it all again.
Why should anyone have to write an article countering the one posted when all the material is out there, and has been for for years? You can lead a horse to water …. but one gets tired of trying to lead horses and watching them run away.
Do we need an article by someone explaining how he invented a perpetual motion machine (or a capitalism machine) so readers can present countering arguments explaining how it can’t work?
The title of the article is: “How socialism has affected me” “Me” is the operative word here. He is not claiming anything he is just describing his own personal life!!
Since when is this a crime?
By the way, I also feel discouraged when I read stupid comments.
The intent to be representative, not simply personal, and lines such as “Unfortunately, in Venezuela the law does not matter, because the executive is king in this false democracy.” and “but the country is sick of Chavismo- Madurismo” it’s explicitly so.
But yes, it is anecdotal — which is not a good way to analyze a system, by itself. For every such anecdote there are many counter-examples from other people. Looking at the overall results and statistics, as Uncle Bob’s post did, is better.
@ Blue
Uncle Bob cited stats on healthcare and education, but what about the economic indicators?
Annual cost of living increases are at 772% . The currency devaluation is estimated at 32% per month.
The government has introduced capital and price controls further exacerbating shortages. Madura’s approval rating is at 25%.
You can dismiss Catire’s account as the rantings of a filthy rich, but the the disastrous economic and financial indicators of the country only substantiate his point of view.
Read for yourself and weep:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/24/us-venezuela-maduro-idUSKBN0MK2B420150324
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-15/venezuela-s-772-inflation-means-default-may-come-a-lot-sooner
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-10-08/the-61-devaluation-that-venezuela-told-no-one-about
It’s great to have a social model, but it needs to be sustainable.
Reuters? Bloomburg?
I wouldn’t rely on them for facts if they were talking about the spot price of gold.
Socialism is very sustainable (especially if not constantly invaded, attacked, and undermined by warlords, gangsters, or imperialists).
http://www.mondragon-corporation.com/eng/about-us/ is a socialist company that’s been going strong since started by a few people in 1956.
Catire is obviously not filthy rich — never said he was.
OK — I’m not going to squabble about this any more. I’m just going to drop it and do some things I need to, because this is no more fun than squabbling with creationists, and leads nowhere.
Think whatever you want.
Ok just don’t shoot the messenger. I also hate mainstream media which is why I come here. Bloomberg and reuters have the most up to date economic and financial stats so I quoted them. Give us other data if you have it.
Regarding Mondragon, it’s actually a very good example of people organising themselves without top down government intervention. (look up in FAQs). They generate profits and their employees participate in a profit sharing scheme. I like it!
Without top-down — exactly! And that’s what real socialism is: management and control ‘of the people, by the people, for the people”.
Check out the web site democracyatwork.info, and rdwolff.com — a professor emeritus teaching Marxist economics.
This is what I man when I say most people do not know what socialism really is about.
Blue, you’ve mentioned ‘creationists’ three times now since our previous exchange, I’m assuming you are referring to me (in part) here. So to the point, who said I was a creationist (as it is typically portrayed)? Because I don’t believe in the same form of evolution you do? Do you believe in the ‘Big Bang’? If so, how is this theory any different than any other creation theory? The Big Bang is simply a metaphysical concept clothed in scientific rhetoric. On what basis does the ‘Big Bang’ rest? What came before the Big Bang when all the universes simply exploded into existence?
I think if enough ivory tower types repeated the mantra that we are an evolved worm you would believe it, because of course they would back it up with volumes of literature linking the evolution of the digestive tract of the worm to the modern day fetus….
You simply regurgitate what you’ve been told, and you grasp to that worldview with white knuckles. If anyone could provide me with real proof that we are evolved apes I’m in. I’m agnostic when it comes to facts, I let them lead me, but so far, after reading volumes on the topic I have not seen one shred of evidence to support the notion that one species can change into another. I don’t care if the hip bone of one creature resembles that of another, evolutionary biologists are still hotly debating where we originated, with even the ‘from Africa’ theories coming into question.
Apparently we also have a mitochondrial Eve, which we are assured belonged not only to one mother but to others as well, despite the fact that the ‘science’ supports that only one mothers mitochondria can be linked. The assumption of other mothers despite the science is what we call filling in the gaps when the theory is inconvenient. Not that I buy any of it anyway, its all a game of musical theories.
You must surely lament my ignorance, what a burden it must all be.
“support the notion that one species can change into another.”
Right there you demonstrate your utter ignorance about how evolution works — or your complete bias and prejudice such that you refuse to understand the copious evidence which exists — far greater than a big bang theory (which you don’t understand either: “The Big Bang is simply a metaphysical concept clothed in scientific rhetoric.”).
A species may replace another, but one does not ‘change’ into another any more than a model T Ford changed into a Taurus. Yet, the T evolved into the Taurus.
http://www.autoevolution.com/ford/
In short, you do not understand scientific method or thinking, and i’m not going to waste time trying to educate you. I doubt you would allow yourself to understand even what speciation means.
“You simply regurgitate what you’ve been told, and you grasp to that worldview with white knuckles.” — look up psychological projection some time.
This doesn’t make you a bad person, of course, but a bad scientist.
Thanks for link to Ford motor company!
I must say that your comment was indeed one of the most bizarre ever, for a species to evolve it must do so in a continuous process, this is not changing tool and die sets.
The theory of the BIg Bang is based largely on the redshift theory of objects moving away from a central point, I’m well aware of the ‘science’, however redshift is problematic for various reasons. Do you offer anything tangible, or do you just like to speak from your self imagined high horse?
I’m not going to get involved with this when you don’t know the difference between physics and metaphysics.
You do not understand science.
“You do not understand science.” – Blue
Says the guy who brings nothing Play your games with someone else.
I left out the economic stats from the article I posted because they were dated.At the time in the article they were quite good.But we all know with the “gruesome twosome” of the Empire and wealthy sabotaging the economy.Coupled with the depression of the oil market the economy is now quite bad.But that doesn’t say that the government was on the wrong path (certainly they did make mistakes).But it does mean that combined with attacks,and foreign problems they have no control over,it is now in bad shape.Its the same trick used against Russia.Attack and try to destroy the economy.And then also blame Putin for the problems in the economy.
@Uncle Bob
I agree that low oil prices and subversive financial attacks from the USA are a problem. But why choose hyperinflation and price controls as a solution? Why didn’t they pass reforms to diversify the economy when they had the cushion of high oil prices?My point is that much of the current economic pain is self-inflicted.
I’m not sure.I suspect it was as I said in an earlier post.Since Venezuela isn’t a dictatorship its hard to get through really comprehensive reforms.The upper classes and 5th column fight reforms that could dilute their power over the economy.I get the impression that in the Venezuelan situation (like in most nation changing revolutions) you have several opinions among the government leadership.And without a charismatic leader now, its hard to get them all on the same page (we see that problem on a smaller level in Russia as well).
@ Serbian girl: You lost me.
@ Blue:
“Why should anyone have to write an article countering the one posted when all the material is out there, and has been for years?”
When I read the other article, I was getting myself ready to type a long counter-argument, but others beat me to it and did it absolutely brilliantly, with facts, links and all the trimmings. I didn’t feel there was any need to add anything else. Which is a bit like what you said in the quote above, the facts about Venezuela are out there, have been out there for years, and it’s been thoroughly covered by nearly every reputable journalist I know. Do we really need to go over those well known facts again and again until our faces turn blue?
The only fitting rebuttal to the “author” would have to come from somebody from Venezuela on the other side of the social class to Catire’s. And there lays the problem, most of us who post here are not from there, so we have to go by what trusted people like John Pilger, Michael Parenti, Greg Palast (etc) tell us about it.
-TL2Q
Well I didn’t stop reading the previous article at the mention of Anarchist, never the less I feel that in the task that you set out for your self in looking for an article that would provide an Un-ideological insight into Venezuela; the Catire article was a terrible choice in the simple fact that their is only one link for reference in the entire article, after all a testimony is only valuable insofar it matches and re-affirms material arguments and fact based evidence.
At any rate I do share in your disappointment, I don’t know about these hecklers you have had to endure but I get a bit nervous when countries like Ecuador who barely get any mainstream news coverage are suddenly front page with a possible counter revolution on their front door- it seems pretty critical to be able to get real feedback from people who live in these countries to counter the mainstream media narratives that dominate western society and get wind of these troubles before the NATO blood hounds.
I would remind the Chavistas out their that it is counter media sources like the Saker that have been critical in defending Venezuela especially during the original GWB bush backed coup, we cannot ignore problems and pretend they are not there, having fact based arguments and real feedback from ordinary people is an integral part of being able to counter and disprove the problems that our class enemies pretend to be there and their assertions that every one shares in these beliefs.
Without this we look just as crazy as the Catire article does, I would suggest anyone who has a pretense to Marxism to go over VI Lenin’s “What is To be Done” if you truly care about the Socialist aspect of the Bolivarian revolution or any socialist revolution for that matter whether it is Cuban, Chinese or Korean.
No revolution has survived ignoring problems and contradictions developing in the society it is trying to create only to then be faced with a crises and then act reactively to the situation, one should only need to mention the Soviet Union and perestroika for the case in point here……..
As I just commented on the article (and this is as much a personal attack as a political one) the whole article reeks of petit-bourgeois teenage rebellion and those dreams being crushed by a reality that he and hundreds of thousands of others in Venezuela never took responsibility for.
A democratic socialist revolution demands active participation. Active participation in social life, in political life, in cultural life. If not it turns into a bureaucratic relic and in many ways something worse than capitalism itself.
He has now experienced that. The question is how active he ever was himself. Considering that he is upset at how politics turned the social stability of his class and family upside down he doesn’t seem very interested.
Yes. And your comment here reek of a dude speaking on the internet of a place he never has been. Like mine, btw. Maybe it’s a fair assessment, maybe it’s not, but what’s clear is that Catire is documenting a real experience, not doing an opinion column. The point is the fact reported, not who is Catire ultimately. If you can’t comment on the facts (disproving them, acknowledging them, explaining them) you’re OT as the article is about those facts, not the peson of Catire or his/here ability to explain politics etc.
A request:
Would those talking about socialism please read this very brief introduction:
http://www.slp.org/what_is.htm
What is socialism
One error int he article: socialism has existed and does exist, but not on a national scale, and in various ‘flavors’.
This is from the Socialist Labor Party of America, and is but one of the various sites and organization which can be found.
There is various material which can be found at the site, including, for example
http://www.slp.org/pdf/de_leon/ddlother/soc_indiv.pdf
1912 — Socialism vs. ‘Individualism’ (PDF) (29 pp, 124K)
I haven’t seen this site before — it just came up from googling ‘what is socialism’ and was trivial to find through this very simple ‘research’, in five minutes.
If someone doesn’t want to do even basic readings about socialism and ‘social welfare systems’, and get the basics and the words right, then don’t even post the nonsense I keep seeing — and don’t post stuff about how garden gnomes eat you cabbages or the tooth fairy gives you dimes, either. Enough, already!
I read back your original post with comments and frankly you seem to be a bit over reacting. Positive and negative reactions are balanced, most are articulate. A few guys here and there are doing the expected mockery (tbh the article kind of asks for it a bit) while most don’t deny he’s credible on what he reports.
Now I understand once you live in it you may loose perspective but Venezuela has a pretty clear story regarding class war, putsch, poverty etc. As one of the very few exemple of at least partially successful wealth redistribution, it’s expected to be indeed, if not holy, at least emotional to some.
FTR I considered commenting on the article yesterday but thought it wasn’t needed because it went peacefuly with actually way more approval than criticism (balance did even later, granted). So I’ll do it here: yes, the way you can think against yourself and consider many opinions is probably my favorite thing here and I am certainly not the only one :)
Take care, Saker
This rant is a hyperbole if ever I’ve seen one.
The Saker must be under impression of the moderated comments, because there is certainly nothing in posted ones that warrants “a scream of total disappointment”.
Thank you Z
I do not see any “primitive” responses. Do not see that disagreeing with an author is “primitive”. Perhaps Catire might spend a summer in a barrio and might then evolve his perspective.
JMHO
Christine
Guys, Saker gets 200 or more emails every day…
Z,
A rant is hyperbolic by definition. Learn the meaning of words. It will help you to understanding.
To others who think by attacking Catire they are winning their argument and defending the failures of Socialism, wrong.
The message, not the messenger, is the target for your counter-argument, but most of you missed the target.
I would be most impressed if the attackers prepared an article and let Saker publish it as an argument for more of what we see in the failed Socialist states.
Your attacks merely reinforced the observation that ideology is a world of circular logic. It fails, then defends its failure with ideology, fails to defend and does it again and again.
And here, on these pages, the defenders have failed to convince because they are caught in the circular logic.
The evidence is in. Socialism has a big heart and small brain. It keeps the poor in poverty, destroys productivity, empowers a bloated and ultimately corrupt government, wastes resources and becomes tyrannical. Then they blame the external pressures of the US.
Stop searching for a perfect system. Embrace human nature. Humans learn, grow, change. Constraining them inside a system of “good, benevolent ideas” designed by rigid deciders who need to rule others will never work.
rant: speak or shout at length in a wild, impassioned way.
hyperbole: exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.
A rant need not be exaggerated at all.
“The evidence is in. Socialism has a big heart and small brain. It keeps the poor in poverty, destroys productivity, empowers a bloated and ultimately corrupt government, wastes resources and becomes tyrannical.”
Nonsense. Here you provide an example of a rant with is very hyperbolic.
(Personally speaking, my heart is much smaller than my brain — my approach is intellectual and fact based, and rather cold and ruthless.)
Once again someone talking about socialism with no idea what it actually is.
Sorry, Mats — not trying to be too critical or annoy you, but just being ‘heartless’ in conveying the facts.
Present the facts of the success of Socialism.
Give us a nation that has raised their poor out of poverty using Socialism.
One will do.
If this request isn’t too hyperbolic in your usage, your big brain.
Norway and Sweden. My definition of socialism. Successful.
China and USSR to a great degree, even though they were not really socialist. Cuba. Venezuela made great inroads. Libya — highest standard of living in Africa. Even Iraq with it’s ‘benevolent medieval king” Saddam had noted success with standards as compared to other Middle Eastern nations.
None of these are complete, and there has not been a modern major socialist country, but can extrct examples of socialism working, even in the Nordic and other European nations. Yet, throughout history there have been examples of smaller groups, and even nations such as Native Americans.
When a nation starts to turn socialistic in modern times, however, imperialists concentrate on bringing it down (to destroy a good example’, and that’s often enough to destroy any nation. Consider how well many have done in the face of such terrible odds and attacks (Cuba, for example).
Additionally, there has not been much experience with complex and large nations, and they are subject to all the internal dangers such as corruption, crop failures, and so forth, as any nation is. Socialism isn’t a magic bullet, after all — just much better than capitalism or despotism. It turns out that most people are perfectly able to own and run their own businesses, manufacturing plants, and governments with neither a tyrant nor a plutocratic oligarchy.
The sort of example you ask for is like asking for an example of a successful commercial airliner in 1920.
Libya
Mats on September 09, 2015 · at 4:39 pm UTC said
“Present the facts of the success of Socialism.”,
The failure of Socialism is evidence that the human race (and it’s psycho oligarch element as particular constituents) does not deserve to survive.
Does that hold for the even bigger failures of capitalism and imperialism?
Maybe — but I think raccoons, flies, and mosquitoes deserve to survive even less, as that’s the source of much of my current annoyance. More abstractly, scorpions and big hairy biting spiders are no favorites — or anacondas, blue octopi, or chupacabras. I guess it depends on who is deciding. Who does decide?
It isn’t socialism that failed, but those who attack and destroy it out of greed and war mongering — fail to adhere the moral standards humans have developed. It’s like the refugees haven’t failed, but the ones who make the wars forcing them to run.
Why did Chavez not uphold all the ideals and standards of socialism? Did he fail, or was it those who relentlessly attacked justice and sovereignty and human decency, and Chavez himself, forcing him into extreme defensive measures just for survival?
blue on September 09, 2015 · at 9:09 pm UTC said:
“Does that hold for the even bigger failures of capitalism and imperialism?”
of course.
blue said:
“It isn’t socialism that failed”
of course.
The concept is fine – unfortunately the egotism of mankind (see Angelo’s earlier billionaire) will never let it flourish.
“Egotism of mankind”
We see a lot about ‘human nature’ but it’s not clear what that is.
For instance there is this just yesterday:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article42805.htm
The US Military and the Myth that Humanity is Predisposed to Violence
By Maria Santelli
September 09, 2015 “Information Clearing House” – We have this tragic misperception that humanity is predisposed to violence.
The truth is that humanity is predisposed to peace. The default position for humanity is that of conscientious objector to war and violence.
In our work at the Center on Conscience & War, this is proven to us daily, through our individual conscientious objectors. Science has proven it, too. This tendency for cooperation over competition is evident in daily life: on an average day, most people will witness countless acts of cooperation, kindness, and humanity towards one another, and not one act of violence or competition. And most of it is so commonplace, we barely even notice it. We take our nonviolence for granted.
…
Cultural interactions and norms play a huge part in human behavior, and so does epigenetics influenced by experience not only of the individual, but of recent ancestors and how their chemistry and gene expression is altered. Individually, psychological mechanisms are brought into play in reaction to upbringing. It’s something like saying ‘computer nature’ without accounting for what software is installed — easy to get misled. With epigenetics the question of ‘nature or nurture’ is muddied considerably. Abused children have measurable differences in brain structures, and people under stress, such as war or famine, have lasting differences in hormone levels.
The ego of the typical western person, or anyone living in an imperialist, warlike, or highly competitive place is different from that of someone in a peaceful, cooperative place. Cats are very different — wild or domesticated (tame), aloof or affectionate — depends on what happens to them as kittens and what they perceive as threatening. Same with dogs and other animals.
Being born into a cooperative, socialistic, and humanistic society is very different from being born into another sort, or creating and living in a socialistic society while still influenced by earlier experience. Ego or egotism is a reaction to experience too.
blue on September 10, 2015 · at 1:43 pm UTC quoted:
“…[]…Being born into a cooperative, socialistic, and humanistic society is very different from being born into another sort, or creating and living in a socialistic society while still influenced by earlier experience. Ego or egotism is a reaction to experience too.”
Agreed.
Unfortunately something always seems to “happen” to screw up the party – Çatalhöyük only survived for 1,400 years (7400 BC – 6000 BC) https://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Uploads/129/Media/First_City_Peaceful_Anarchy.pdf
I stand by my belief that the human race does not deserve to survive.
We are creatures of habit. After all this time it is very hard to accept that there can be anything bad about a nation that Washington has labelled “a threat to the security of the USA”.
But I, for one, believe the article because The Saker is committed to truth, rather than ideology. And I thank everyone concerned for enlightening me, even if the enlightenment caused me a little mental pain.
But I, for one, believe the article because The Saker is committed to truth, rather than ideology.
Careful here! I am not endorsing what Catire wrote, nor am I vouching for its accuracy. All I wanted is to present a testimony which is consistent with what I heard from another sources. I find it *credible* but that does not mean that I can endorse it. These are very different propositions.
Any testimony is, by definition, personal. There are two levels which Catire’s testimony should have been rebutted:
1) facts (disputation of his or presentation of others)
2) their interpretation (what caused these facts, causality, analytical flaws)
Clearly, very few are interested by this kind of methodology, so why should I waste my time?
This morning I turned down an article offering 10 pages of hard data on Venezuela. Why? Simply because I don’t want a repeat of what happened with the first article.
Tom – thanks a lot for your trust and kind words.
The Saker
Very few ? I think the case is pretty clear actually:
– no one/very few doubted the facts
– many noticed Catire’s expectations were not that much the one of a citizen than the one of an individual, and found it troublesome as the one thing interesting for non venezuelians in Venezuela is its atypical model as a democracy and especially whether it can resist crushing from USA.
– clearly there are troubles in Venezueal, especially for upper class but not only
– clearly those troubles are part tied to US scheming and partly to the corruption expected for 1) a leftish heavy state and 2)south america in a way that can’t be compared by people here – we’d need 19 more testimonies from Venezuela to do that at least
– Venezuela is under attack. It’s not sensible of you IMO to be irritated to see people get defensive.
Now again, ME, I learned a lot in that article and deeply enjoyed it. But I don’t find the reactions either crazies or unexpected or disappointing.
Also it’s normal than few can have your approach. There’s a reason why many people read you.
All of this said I totally applaud your effort to try to get people to improve their judgment. I feel aligned with your approach and indeed am often frustrated of how few people seem to be able to do the basic steps, even otherwise articulate ones.
Are you looking for an out to quit the blog? Sounds like it. Setting up the scenario.
Your rant sounds like a pity party
Same impression on my side. But this is only one of the bizzare episodes I’ve encountered here over the time. Still, I enjoy observing this place, good for training the “navigational” skills.
re: Saker rant. Well, when the gadfly stings it knows it hit home when the bull bellows. Congratulations. Sorry the moderators had to work so hard, though. It is an imperfect world in the throes of major ecological, spiritual stress–some of my more hopeful friends say that it is rebirth. The work you do is important….maybe try poetry as a release? I;m sure it will be is as good as your analytical output, and additionally it will be creatively healing .
Dear The Saker,
Keep up the good work. Don’t fret. Don’t get discouraged. God is with you.
Remember most human beings cannot handle a new truth of something they thought was so wonderful ( Chavez, Maduro, Castro, Mao, Bush, Obama, Clinton, Zionism, Benja-mean, Israel,).
Maduro is not fit to lead a country, the poor man was just a bus driverand yes! just Regan was just a Hollywood actor, another not fit to lead a country. It’s not enough to have your heart for the people, you need education to fight against the criminals that ARE best-universities educated.
Unfortunately, Venezuela and most of South and Central America does not have a Hispanic Putin.
And as to Europe and North America they don’t have anyone close to a Putin either, and less likely than any other country to have one, they are too steeped in blood.
“I am in blood stepped in so far that should I wade no more, Returning were as tedious as go o’er,” (Macbeth:Act 3)
USA, Israel and Europe to a tee.
Regards,
Carmel by the Sea
Maduro is great. He did not need a degree to become his people’s leader.
He isn’t charismatic like Chavez, so he is proofing that people don’t need a charismatic leader to make a revolution.
RATIONIS OMNIA VINCIT
I wish Venezuela would fire Maduro and make him leave the country — to become the President of the US.
Well — I can dream, can’t I?
Off topic: I wanted to add this to the information/discussion of the US military’s battle ship deployment and this is an addition comment from my military source:
“One other thing that I forgot about the carriers; there is 1 that is hot, radioactive hot that is. It was helping during the Fukoshima sunami and it was hit by the fall out. Nobody is talking about it, but its true, so the Navy is actually short of 2 carriers. I don’t remember the name of that carrier.”
Many years a columnist (I believe it was Anthony Lewis) noted that when he wrote a column that offended the “Left,” he would be sent arguments trying to show him where he was wrong. When he offended the “Right,” his editor would receive letters demanded he be fired.
There is plenty enough on this earth for every single man, but there are no enough satellites in the universe to satisfy the greed of the man.
We must become the change we want to see.
~ Mahatma Gandhi
All of you who has send the hatred e – mails to Saker, unfortunately you have missed the point. The good news is, we are evolving and we just have to hope that this materialistic madness will come to the point that the humanity finally discover the stage “What is the point to fight each other and kill each other just to have more what we exactly don’t need”
Blessings to all of you even the sleepy one and try to wake up because the world is changing rapidly
+1
I hope you are correct.
Think of all the readers who made no comment. I think most of us understand and support your posture.
To tell you the truth, I haven´t even read the article, because I know it would cause me severe distress. Eventually I will.
I am very sorry for all bad will you have received recently, but I hope you will keep up the good work you are doing!
I enjoy your blog very much and your analyses and the guest analyses – all is top notch and my favorite place to go!
I enjoyed reading Catire on Venezuela as well and I am sure that – unfortunately – it gives a fair picture of the situation as it would be for me if I was living there.
I have donated to your site and I hope to do more so in the future.
Thank you!
I’ve read most of the comments I think and didn’t notice many attacks on you Saker. On the other hand I’ve read quite a few thoughtful responses. Good discussion.
@ Tom Welsh
Your words were almost exact: the fact is the Saker is fighting for truth including in opening the door to contradiction.
@ The Saker
Heads up Saker: we all know that the price to pay when you fight for the truth is hate.
Your work is a very high work and you have all my support for what you do.
Thanks again
Joe Emsberger is an expert of politics in the region
I post his observations below – it is worth following his writing on South America
This essay not worth anyone’s time.
The essay says “Only since Chavez came to power in 1992 have these problems eventuated and political divisions among the population were never so marked before either”
What would you think of analysis of the UK that said “Tony Blair came to power in 1992” and by somebody whose claim to credibility is being from the UK?
Chavez was first elected in 1998 and first took office in 1999.
He says “Venezuela was never a country of emigration ”
It still isn’t. Just wrote about this.
http://www.telesurtv.net/english/opinion/Media-Rubbish-about-Venezuelans-Who-Have-Left-to-Live-Abroad-20150902-0008.html
It certainly not a country of illegal immigration which is what characterizes Latin American countries in deep crisis.
BTW why didn’t he just immigrate to Colombia to enjoy the benefits of capitalism much closer to home?
Moreover to legally immigrate to Canada takes a lot of dough unless you marry somebody Canadian or claim refugee status.
People who immigrate legally to a place like Canada (without marrying somebody or claiming refugee status) and say they are an “average citizen” are being very modest to put it politely.
I personally know mayor of a town in Latin America who was denied a visa to simply visit Canada.
The Canadian government wasn’t confident that he had enough property back home and worried he might overstay the visitor VISA and try to get residency.
Below comments from Joe Emsberger – he KNOWS Latin America- you should read his work:
This essay not worth anyone’s time.
The essay says “Only since Chavez came to power in 1992 have these problems eventuated and political divisions among the population were never so marked before either”
What would you think of analysis of the UK that said “Tony Blair came to power in 1992” and by somebody whose claim to credibility is being from the UK?
Chavez was first elected in 1998 and first took office in 1999.
He says “Venezuela was never a country of emigration ”
It still isn’t. Just wrote about this.
http://www.telesurtv.net/english/opinion/Media-Rubbish-about-Venezuelans-Who-Have-Left-to-Live-Abroad-20150902-0008.html
It certainly not a country of illegal immigration which is what characterizes Latin American countries in deep crisis.
BTW why didn’t he just immigrate to Colombia to enjoy the benefits of capitalism much closer to home?
Moreover to legally immigrate to Canada takes a lot of dough unless you marry somebody Canadian or claim refugee status.
People who immigrate legally to a place like Canada (without marrying somebody or claiming refugee status) and say they are an “average citizen” are being very modest to put it politely.
I personally know mayor of a town in Latin America who was denied a visa to simply visit Canada.
The Canadian government wasn’t confident that he had enough property back home and worried he might overstay the visitor VISA and try to get residency.
Alejandro Velasco, New York University writes a lot on Venezuela and is fairly objective. This article is a little old (2014) but useful:
https://nacla.org/news/2014/3/11/venezuelas-polarizations-and-maduro%E2%80%99s-next-steps
On his planet most people are not going to accord to your views, simply because they don’t care, or are living in the propaganda matrix, or are simply evil. Amayzing that you let touch yourself by this, normally you do talk to people who knows, and not people who need to be “educated”.
Mr. Saker,
I would be willing yo take up your offer to “post a rebuttal” to Catire. Although I am not sure a rebuttal is necessary. The give and take of the responses was bloody, but real.
My response to your posting of Catire’s article was positive and supportive. All points of view must be heard for the truth to be understood. I have taught History of Latin america and of Latin American peoples, as one of my concentrations. Democratic Republics, filled with well armed Minutemen (I almost wrote Anarchists) fear no thoughts, and resist all repressions.
The spiritual core of my response to Catire was where I mentioned how my comrades obtained an auto in early 1960s Méjico. Buy?!? Hell!?! We had no money$?! We had love and cojones. We still have those. If you wish me to take it from there, you have but to ask.
Your friend and neighbor,
Don’t be afraid. Ask me,! I’ll write a nice respectful “rebuttal.”
Peter
Sorry to hear you got hate-mail Saker – but that’s what mods are for. Yes, Chavez is iconic – strong reactions are to be expected, particularly from Venezuelans who have invested so much in chavismo.
Apart from one or two sarky remarks on the thread, I didn’t get the impression you had failed with your disclaimer to put Catire’s post into context: most posts focussed on the content. So that was successful, wasn’t it? Then you really shouldn’t stay upset – even if some of the fallout is painful.
I did not fine Catire personally very enlightening – he only offered anecdotal evidence of ‘system failure.’ Nor did he seem to have any interest in solutions, much less any overarching ideal or vision for Venezuela as a whole.
The fact that his qualification is in marketing suggests his ideal economic system would involve plenty of credit and high-consumption, plus a large-scale distribution system. He would likely do well in such an environment, always allowing for competition. I can see why a wealth-distribution model that prioritizes centuries overdue redress would not appeal to him.
We are all materialistic – none more so than the impoverished. Its a question of degree.
He’s no different to most in that respect, so I don’t despise his aspirations, even if I don’t personally care about his lack of credit. He has not earned my affection, or respect or moved me in anyway.
For a simple reason – his lack of anger on behalf of others. This is not a man betrayed. That man I could be moved by, even I believed his perception to be wrong, or his evaluation incorrect.
Catire never shared the vision – that inequity is iniquity – in the first place.
Inequality is not iniquity. It is in the very nature of things. What is iniquity is injustice. A certain poverty is normal, but not misery. The vast discrpancies today are the result of unjust economic policies and greed, and the misuse of the of money by collusions of interests, not to mention industrialism generally and the reign of the machine.
However, I agree that the criticism of Catire was mediocre. He is essentially a disenfranchised middle-class person, very typical of Latin America. After all, the middle classes, when they are not technocrats and professionals, are bound-up with commerce, and the commercial mentality by definition is mediocre. On the one hand the bourgeoisie lend stability, on the other hand, they lack idealism and their intelligence is purely practical and “flat”. All this Plato and Aristotle saw clearly: democracy leads to oligarchy and ultimately to tryranny. That is just what is facing us, along with war and therefore hunger. I believe that the time of collective solutions has passed, only individuals and families can “save” themselves from the darkness that is enshrouding us all.
But, as the Muslims say, “God knoweth best!” And, “they are plotting a plot, but We are plotting a plot, and God is the best of plotters!” We are clearly coming to an end of a human cycle, hence the necessary dissolution.
Blue, very well put.
Angelo’s views are a-historical and lacking in psychological basics.
A quick trip down memory-lane -like pre-welfare state Victorian Britain would enlighten him: the Hobbesian observation that life was ‘short, brutish and nasty’ was no quip, as Engels so thoroughly documented, and Marx so brilliantly diagnosed why in ‘Das Capital.’
Still to be bettered as diagnosis – though we have yet to find the best prescription.
It definitely is not ‘laissez-faire’ or the absurd notion that ‘trickle down’ will circulate in a healthy way throughout the body-politic: we are living with the dreadful consequences of that fiction.
Do some homework Angelo – do you really believe corruption would never emerge under libertarian conditions?
How do you think Libor was rigged – too much government oversight?
Don’t be discouraged. It is necessarily always a minority that is qualitative. The majority, the quantitative, as the Koran and other Scriptures point out, are like “cattle,” and tend to be morally inferior and low-minded when given the opportunity; hence the savagery so easily unleashed and clearly visible in our time of ideological and material conflict. It is latent in the apparently mediocre goodness of the collectivity. The collectivity is passive by definition, and it’s always molded according to the more intellectually and determining elements, whether these be superior and upward tendin, or inferior and infernally tending–as in our day of dissolution and disappearance of the good. The majority don’t think, they react, according to their emotions, their prejudices, and their formation, and frankly, their pettiness. Of course this idea is far from our era’s stupid and sentimental egalitarianism, poisonous fruit of the French Revolution, among other causes. But even the Gospel affirms: “many are called, few are chosen.” The majority go by the “wide gate”, while only a few enter by the “narrow gate”. This incorruptible and objective realism and deeply spiritually “aristocratic” quality of true religion is one reason why the subversive, flannel-mouth “liberal” ideologies hate religion, and why they have infiltrated it in order to denature and destroy it. A resurgence of religion in our day will most probably be a precursor of the “global” religion of Antichrist, but of course it will be terribly “moral” and humanistic, cleverly hiding its inner corruption. True charity is the first virtue to be subverted in our day, along with the relativization of truth, of course.
Saker, do not feel discouraged, please, although it is normal sometimes, you are trying your best here and it is not your fault that people sometimes do not answer as you expected, or deserves.
IMO, there were many comments worthy in the thread. I made my contribution, but I could only put links in Spanish, because my time to post is limited now. I wanted to link an article about the shortages but had not the time yesterday to look for it.
About the evil people taking always the opportunity to hurt you, or anybody else, just ignore them.
Take care.
A big hug.
There are some amazing comments on this blog, as interesting as the essays they comment on. In my opinion the subject “Venezuela” is much too large to be covered by a single essay and its comments. What is amazing is the ability of the commenters to take a wide scale view of the world, and I add my own opinion on that:
There is a new world coming. The old world, the world of today and yesterday, will no longer exist. New systems will be born out of the existing systems, because that is the natural way of growth. The only question is how much suffering the current masters of the world will demand. We humans arose and created our world by sweat, blood and tears, and no doubt there will be enough of those to go round. But we also created our world by love and laughter, and God prefers comedy to tragedy. I know this as surely as I know that if I had some ham, I could have some ham and eggs, if I had some eggs; but I don’t, because I don’t eat ham and eggs.
Dear Saker,
It would be interesting to publish even the hatred mail to know who is in this low position of the society. I have a feeling that our community on this blog would let them know that they don’t belong here because we are peaceful bloggers and nothing else.
Hatred belong to the people who wanted to be eaten by the hatred, it is like wearing backpack with tons of extra weight for NO reason.
Next time let some hatred e – mails exposed and don’t worry we will deal with them in a polite way.
Keep going, these people intentionally want to take your energy away, don’t make them happy we are staying beside you and your work with your very sober analyses
Serbian Girl wrote:
“It’s great to have a social model, but it needs to be sustainable.”
Serbian Girl, you nailed it.
Mr.Saker,
How about you make available to your readers some of the viewpoints from your Venezuelan friend who used to be a chavista but became disilusioned with it?
That, i think, would probably be much better than reading from someone(catire) who appears to have always been against bolivarianism.
BTW, as i said in the original article, there r some really nutty comments coming from people who live in nice places, such as Canada.
I lived in Zamerica in the 90s, went to high school there. So did several cousins and a few friends. None of us were( or are) part of the elite in Brazil, fairly middle class and struggling, as those were the terrible years of neo-liberalism in Brazil, which really ruined the country.
One thing that struck us, when we discussed our experiences, was how affluent was the zusan middle class then.
Their standart of living was much higher than ours.
Automobiles were of a very high quality and cheap and so was gas.
I remember zusan friends, in their late teens, buying nice second hand cars which would have been impossible for most middle class brazilians to have at such age.
Currently, the gap between what I earn and what a poor -not miserable – brazilian earns is not so great. The gap between me and the rich is absolutely HUGE.
Many of the leftist nutjobs posting here seem to think that being middle class is to be ‘privileged’. Some also seem to not know that many south american countries have large middle classes; I’ll tell you about 3 that i know in person; Brazil, Argentina and Uruguay.
Zusan middle class, zusan friends, Zamerica? Who are zusans? Do you mean Brazilians? And by Zamerica do you mean South America? To write is to communicate–preferably clearly.
@luca
Thanks for your comment.
I have just been attacked in another conversation, by some left wing commentators, about my economic ideas. They wonder how I, a Serbian girl, could have such “neoliberal ” ideas, even though I am not a neoliberal at all.
The truth is: I saw firsthand the damage done to my country though central planning and how honest, hardworking people were plundered by bureaucratic, kleptocratic government officials. I also how the Yugoslav model of socialism was artificial, much of sustained through credit fuelled growth. Future generations were paying for present economic prosperity. Well, my generation sure paid (with poverty and war)!
I come to this blog because I am very pro – Russian and I fed up with the mainstream media. But I am not sure they appreciate people with different backgrounds or if they can handle different points of view.
@Serbian Girl
Your post left me somewhat perplexed. What do you mean by: “I also [saw] how the Yugoslav model of socialism was artificial, much of [it] sustained through credit fuelled growth. Future generations were paying for present economic prosperity”?
I am aware of the fact that many socialist (or “socialist”) countries used to handle resource allocation by giving loans to companies. But in a command economy, that is a zero-sum game. Nobody ever expected the loans to be repaid, and they could not be used to extract wealth from the economy. In this context, “credit-fuelled growth” is the same as “planned and commanded growth”.
The only way that credit can be problematic in socialism (or “socialism”) is if it is external debt. Did Yugoslavia finance its economy with external debt? A sure sign would be a trade balance deficit.
Unfortunately, I am not familiar with the Yugoslav model. Could you please elaborate?
@triffnix
Your understanding of socialist command economy is correct.
Yes, former Yugoslavia had both external debt and trade deficit. The economy was so weak at one point we were unable to meet the interest payments.
Both trade deficits and external debt increased year on year. The only way for the economy to function was to go deeper into debt.
It’s not Venezuela that’s sacred. It’s the primacy of understanding that war is politics and vice-versa. In what really is a race against time the US is widely recognized as being the gravest threat. Otherwise why support Russia and China which are certainly less democratic than Venezuela and make no pretension of economic justice in their own countries? I could list the achiievements of Chavismo but it would be a long one. Correct me if I’m wrong but I haven’t seen you write anything supporting their struggle against imperialism. You simply don’t see the forest for the trees.
I think what perplexes you is misconception that (vast majority of) people are ruled by logic. People are ruled by emotions, subconscious. Neuron-peptides spread proper emotions to every single cell of our bodies, and emotions are triggered by memories of someone/something.
Study showed that conscious part lags behind subconscious reaction about 1 second. My view is that consciousness is used as a policy-maker, to formulate set of rules our subconscious will use to react. Just remember how many people in critical situations “can not remember” why or how they reacted. The truth is that subconscious response was actually never recorded by our higher functions, subconsciousness.
Also a wrong belief is that babies are born with selflessness. Actually, they are born with only understanding of “I” and “mine”. Only their needs and wants are important to them. Persons IQ is built from first day by building synapses (only number of neurons is genetics, the rest is environmental) and at age 5 it reaches the 50%? mark, around 12th year it is something like 80% and person 18 years old creates around 98% of total number of synapses, and the rest of 2% of synapses are “recycled”, can be re-learned.
So if there is no proper house education, indoctrination in social skills, empathy, solidarity, patience, if parents/environment is not able to teach the kids those values in the early age, those persons will be emotionally damaged, insecure, prone to violent/emotional reactions.
Further more, during the study of laboratory mice somewhere in USA, scientists noticed that young mice that are more handled with hands are more calm, less erratic. Further inquiry showed that it because their mother tries to remove the human scent by bathing them in here saliva, this providing more nurture, emotional support. Then they tested by switching nurturing and “detached” mother in mice nests, and came to conclusion that it is not genetics, but that lack of mothers care makes mice more neurotic, less emotionally stable then those that were cared by gentle caring mother. Same goes for humans, the more you remove mothers from caring for their children at early age, the more neurotic and emotionally unstable/violent population you get.
I didn’t comment on the original piece, as far as I’m concerned it’s fine with me. Man is entitled to sharing his experience as he sees it. I would just love to see a rebuttal from another actual Venezuelan or two is all. Too bad about all the negativity.
As to rebuttals, I’m working on something. We’ll see what I can come up with. So far it’s not so much a rebuttal as an . . . introduction to the Venezuelan situation as I see it. Something like that.
Do your work, even if you have to walk alone. Keep faith, tell the truth as you see it in the moment, don’t apologise for bursting people’s illusions, be friendly, kind, wise, and detached. The wheel always turns. Stay at the centre and not at the rim where the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune can assail you.
I understand it, and commend you for including “the other side”. Not only is it simply honest, but is a healthy reminder to maintain a modest humility about the certainty of our points of view. A “different” eye-opener is the German documentary, “The Greatest Story NEVER Told”, about the rise of Nazism and Adolph Hitler. Equally to the point: the experiences of individual human beings can aggregate into many more than ONE POINT OF VIEW. Absolutely crucial to hold this obnoxious observation in one’s consciousness!!
What’s obnoxious about it?
So we can expect some Ukie reports?
The comments to the Saker’s posting of Catire’s article are most interesting, especially those the Saker describes yet didn’t post. I offer my own output here, because major changes are needed within this “game of life” we all are playing a part in.
Catire offers up his own personal experience, living in Venezuela. How is there anything “right” or “wrong” about that if what he relates is genuine? I’m not going to get into politics or ideology, but does his experience sound like a lot of fun and enjoyment? Is he enjoying a happy fulfilling life? Or is his political orientation/ideology more important — whether it fits or not with your own? I would ask that you folks ask yourselves what you would think of life if you were walking in Catire’s shoes. And please, tap into your own sense of humanity and empathy when doing so!
Look at the Big Picture. These terms, “socialism” and “capitalism” — they’ve lost their meaning. They have so many different degrees of meaning, that no one can even agree what they are exactly, and when they are truly seeing it in action (especially where “capitalism” is concerned). The true meanings have been distorted, twisted, smoothed one way versus another, so that it’s a complete confusing mess for people to arrive at much of a consensus as to what they mean. So let’s forget about labels. How about we focus on what is really going on? Please excuse my bluntness (no offense is intended to any of you), but all of us who comprise “the masses” are regarded as “stupid farm animals” by those who are pulling the strings of power all over the world. We are being played like tools. It is all about Power (please read the book “Superclass” by Rothkopf). They appeal to your emotions because we are emotional beings; they take the game to an emotional level so as to minimize thinking and reasoning. Can you not see the game that is being played at a global level??? They’ve been creating emotional and physical dependency this past century and perfecting their “PR” otherwise described as perception management. There’s also the sowing-discord aspect (Hegelian Dialectic). Pissing people off and making them unhappy. Then “your betters” step in to make it all better — for them, not you (never mind the fact that they caused the discord to begin with).
Have you noticed how so many people are dependent upon others for help?? Well, everybody has problems, right? But do you own your problems? Do you step in and try to deal with your own problems yourself? Or do you blame others? Are others responsible for fixing your problems? Does that mean you are responsible for fixing other’s problems?? This isn’t how it is suppose to be. This isn’t normal. We are here in on this planet so that we can Learn. Learn from our problems! Success at this is truly Empowering at a personal level!! We need to stop this perpetual chain of making our problems everybody else’s problems — it starts at an individual level and works its way all the way up to the mass level. The whole point is for us to figure things out so that we can own our lives, own our problems and thereby tap into our own Individual Strength and Power. There is such a thing and it far surpasses any other form of power here on Earth. But your keepers don’t want you to realize that. They want you to get all pissed off about all these other groups who have done wrong by your own group. They want to keep you Down through conflict and contention.
You know, there’s been so much happiness and joy on this planet, that it just keeps on getting better. Right?! LOL — Not!! If one has to revisit history, lets revisit all the atrocities, death, destruction and just plane ol’ Genocide that have been happening for millennia. Never mind who did it — it just keeps on happening again and again. This is what problems we ignore look like. They keep coming back. We humans are caught up in a trap. It’s the trap of being stuck in the victim/oppressor role. We’re taught that our only choice in life is fight or flight. This is what happens when one doesn’t take ownership of their lives (otherwise known as Personal Responsibility) so as to address the bad things in life while searching for the good things. So now we have the mother of all dystopias to look forward to. Yes, things are going that way. The longer we keep on not-waking-up to see the true source of this problem, the more it keeps coming back. Until it reaches the level of “being in your face;” your own personal “Sledgehammer.” That’s where we are now — the whole planet! Apparently we all need to experience dystopia, death and misery up close and personal. Sadly, plenty are already there. Make no mistake, the rest of us are soon to follow. How many of you are going to survive what is coming? You realize the goal is a 80-90% reduction in population? All us “useless food-eating farm animals,” as “they” see it, are clogging-up and fouling the planet — not enough resources for us all (never mind the incompetence and malpractice when it comes to food and energy policy across the globe).
We’re all complicit in this. Ignorance of what is going on is acceptance of what is going on. We need to wake up and see the Big Picture. We need to stop being Tools to what is going on. Stop reacting the way they expect you to, which is to either submit (victim response) or to fight (wannabe oppressor type). With each and every one of us possessing Free Will, are these our only two options? Is this truly what you want? There is a third option which starts with opting out. It is exactly like taking the “red pill” in the movie, the Matrix. This is a personal choice and a personal path. It can be a creative and empowering path, too. Check out Jon Rappoport’s blog (https://jonrappoport.wordpress.com) and his “Matrix” material:
Exiting the Matrix: https://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2015/08/14/exit-from-the-matrix-triumph-over-the-empire-2/
Power Outside of the Matrix: https://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2015/09/04/the-individual-radiating-power-enemy-of-the-state/
We are truly well on the path to destruction. We’re reaching the point, in blaming everybody else for any and all problems, of rising up in anger and wreaking havoc. Chaos unlike anything we’ve ever experienced is headed our way. This is exactly what “they” want. Let us help them out by “culling” ourselves. Then “they” can ride in on their white horse to provide what’s left of us with “order” and the basics for our survival.
We’re better than this. We’re capable of so much more. We’ve lost touch with who we are. It all starts at the individual level. Look inwards and start to wake up. Ask questions. Think instead of reacting. Focus on what good remains to be seen (it is there). There is hope (perhaps avoid a war that is nuclear to start with?). Our diversity is something to be cherished. We are all human and underneath our religions, cultures, races and ideologies, we’re more similar than we are different. Except for those that are psychopaths and sociopaths, we all seek the same things in life.
The plan is to use chaos to implement further control. It is the same pattern that’s been used for over a century across the globe by those seeking control. Destruction in a normal reality is used for clearing the way for creation. Ours is not a normal reality and that is not the plan. Are we to facilitate our own enslavement and/or destruction? Or is there something newer and better that can be created out of the upcoming chaos? True freedom is something that every individual experiences through taking ownership (personal responsibility) for their own life and embracing their free will; relying on self and not others. And this is without the need to control others — allow others to realize their own individuality as you allow yourself to realize your own.
People tend to aggregate in terms of their beliefs and outlook on life. Life is cooperative, or reinforcing in that way. Darwin was 100% wrong about life operating along the lines of kill or be killed and “survival of the fittest.” Life, while centered around each individual having free will and being personally responsible, is a cooperative endeavor in the end. We need to pull together and stop serving the needs of those who have lost their way.
Socialists:
1. Print LOTS of money to “HELP the PEOPLE.”
2. Buy LOTS of gold and silver and move cash to Switzerland
3. Then, when prices rise (due to an increase in the money supply),
they impose PRICE CONTROLS.
4. Everything sells out
5. Grocery store owners get blamed when they don’t have trillions of dollars of free
cash to hand out so they just stop buying food
6. Gov’mint cracks down.
7. Black market is created so people don’t starve.
8. Gov’mint cracks down on black market
9. Some people starve or eat rats
10. Finally, they’re p’d off enough to rise up and get rid of the idiot socialists
11. Normalcy returns, people send kids to college where they learn from Marxist professors
12. Graduate and get gov’mint positions, where they print LOTS of MONEY to HELP the PEOPLE.
Herd em up Roll em in. Who is riding the horse? You? Watch you don’t fall off.
Cheers,
RR
Don’t give up…please.
Socialism might work if you could get rid of envy and find a saint to implement it.